TESTING THE CAPTIONING REALTIME SYSTEM. THIS IS A TEST OF THE CAPTIONING REALTIME SYSTEM. THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING, AGAIN. LOOKS LIKE WE GOT SOME Z'S LAST NIGHT AND GOT OVER THE JET LAG. ANYWAY, THIS IS THE SECOND DAY OF THE WORKSHOP AND BEFORE WE START I WANT TO THANK ALL THE PRESENTERS, MODERATORS, AND THOSE TAKING NOTES AND ALL THE HELPERS, LIKE TOM AND REGINA, YOU HAVEN'T MET HER. SHE IS WORKING BEHIND THE SCENES . AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE COME TO THIS WORKSHOP. THANKS AGAIN. THIS IS, USUALLY WE ANNOUNCE ANOTHER WORKSHOP BUT WE WANTED TO DO IT BEFORE. WE HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING MEMORANDUM WITH NAVY SO DO A LOT OF WORK. WE HAVE A PROGRAM WHERE WE TEST LOW TECHNOLOGY APPLICATIONS ON OUR SHIPS BEFORE IT GOES ONBOARD THE NAVAL VESSEL SO WE HAVE CURRENTLY TWO ONGOING PROJECTS SO THAT IS A VENUE THAT IF WE HAVE SOME NEW TECHNOLOGIES WE WANT TO TEST WE CAN JOINTLY DO THAT WITH NAVY OR ONBOARD OUR VESSELS. SO IN THE MORNING I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO DO THE FIRST POWER INTEGRATION AND ACTIVITY. I THINK THE MEETING IS A LITTLE BIT DELAYED SO YOU GO RIGHT TO THE PRESENTATION AND THIS MORNING WILL BE MODERATED BY DR. BEN GALI. PLEASE? 

>> THANK YOU. I GUESS I'M QUITE GLAD WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POWER INTEGRATION, POWER AND TRYING TO STORE POWER WAS SOMETHING THAT CAME UP YESTERDAY SEVERAL TIMES AND A LOT OF TIMES IT IS KIND OF THE UNSUNG HERO OF THE BATTERY SYSTEMS IN ELECTRIC PROPULSION. SO, FIRST WILL BE A REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER CURRENTLY THE CHIEF ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AT THE PORT OF LONG BEACH RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING GUIDANCE AND DEVELOPING STANDARDS AND SPECIFICATIONS FOR THE DESIGN OF PORT FACILITY PROJECTS INCLUDING MAJOR POWER SYSTEM UPGRADES, REGARDING PLANNING AND IMPLEMENTATION OF TRUCKS AND SHORE-TO-SHIP POWER SYSTEMS COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS E-TRUCKS AND COLD IRONING PROJECTS. HE HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN PORTS OF LOS ANGELES AND LONG BEACH AND ELECTRICAL FACILITIES FOR OVER 42 YEARS. SPECIFICALLY WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT BATTERY CHARGING, COLD IRONING AND DEVELOPMENT COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE. 

>> GOOD MORNING. YESTERDAY I HEARD A LOT ABOUT HOW YOU DO THE TUG BOATS AND HOW YOU BUY BATTERIES AND A LOT OF YOU ARE DOING RESEARCH AND I COULDN'T HELP BUT THINK OF A JOKE THAT I HAD HEARD BEFORE OF AN ENGINEER SCIENTIST WHO DID AN EXPERIMENT ON A SPIDER. HE TOOK THE SPIDER AND CUT THE LEG AND PUT IT ON THE TABLE AND SAID, WALK. AND THE SPIDER WALKED. AND PICKED UP THE SPIDER AGAIN, CUT THE OTHER LEG. SAID WALK. AND THE SPIDER WALKED. AND HE DID THIS ON ALL THE LEGS UNTIL THE LAST ONE HE CUTS IT AND PUTS IT ON THE TABLE AND SAYS, WALK. AND THE SPIDER DOESN'T MOVE. HE SAYS, WALK. IT DOESN'T MOVE. SO HE ENDS HIS EXPERIMENT, MAKING A REPORT AND SUMMARIZING IT BASICALLY SAYING THAT WHEN YOU CUT ALL THE LEGS OFF THE SPIDER, THE SPIDERS DON'T HEAR ANYMORE. [LAUGHTER] SO WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL WHEN WE DO RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS AND WE ALL GET TOGETHER THAT WE COME UP WITH THE RIGHT CONCLUSIONS AND WHAT WE'RE DOING IS VALID. I'LL BASICALLY BE TALKING ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT WHICH APPARENTLY YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HEARING ABOUT WHEN WE DID IT FOR OUR SHIPS. AND THE COSTS AND ONE PARTICULAR STANDARD I WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU. THE ABILITY TO GO AHEAD AND BUILD SHORE INFRASTRUCTURE, WHAT IT TAKES, PILOT DEMONSTRATION THAT YOU'RE PROBABLY INTERESTED IN, AND HOW IT CAN HELP. HOWEVER, THE LAST ONE I'D LIKE TO SHARE SOME CONCENTRATION WITH YOU THAT PROBABLY WASN'T DISCUSSED YESTERDAY AND I'M SURE YOU ALL KNOW IT BUT I JUST WANT TO BRING IT UP AGAIN. THE DEVELOPMENT FOR LARGE SHIPS AS YOU KNOW THEY NEED A LOT OF BATTERIES ESPECIALLY BIG SHIPS THAT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO IT. THEY'LL REQUIRE A LOT OF LARGE, ELECTRICAL SERVICES. THE PLANNING TAKES MANY, MANY YEARS AS YOU KNOW. I AM NOT GOING TO GO INTO ALL THOSE DETAILS BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU CAN VISUALIZE ALL THAT. AND THEN THE FUNDING IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE. WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT AND HOW MUCH WILL IT COST? JUST ABOUT ANY PROJECT YOU DO, THE FUNDING BECOMES VERY CRITICAL. THE ONLY THING I WOULD SAY ON IT IS THAT ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT CONVERTING TO BATTERIES, EARLY STARTERS, USUALLY FIND THE FUNDS. FUNDING SEEMS TO BE AVAILABLE FROM THE STATE, THE FEDERAL, THE PORTS. WE HAVE MANY PROJECTS RIGHT NOW, OUR UTILITY COMPANY HAS SOME FUNDING AVAILABLE FOR NEW IDEAS, NEW IMPLEMENTATION, SO IF YOU START EARLY YOU SEEM TO FIND MONEY. THE LATE STARTERS, BASICALLY THEY GET STUCK WITH COSTS COMPLETELY. WHEN THEY HAVE TO DO IT. NOW, THE OTHER CONSIDERATION IS THE STANDARD -- SOME OF YOU MAY BE AWARE OF IT THE 80,000 FIVE STANDARD. IT GOT AN ISSUE BECAUSE WHEN, AFTER MANY, MANY YEARS OF CONSIDERATION WHEN THEY DECIDED TO PUT THE SHIPS ON SHORE POWER, WHICH IS WHAT WE DO NOW IN CALIFORNIA, IT'S THE LAW. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A STANDARD. YOU CAN'T IMAGINE ALL THE MODIFICATION YOU'RE GOING TO DO ONSHORE AND ON THE SHIP AND ALL THE SHIPS ARE GOING ALL OVER. THEY NEED TO HAVE A COMMON POINT OF COUPLING, OTHERWISE YOU'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO ABLE TO BE PRACTICAL IN THE APPLICATION OF THE COLD IRON KS SIMILAR TO YOUR BATTERY APPLICATIONS. YOU CAN DO ONE OR TWO INSTALLATIONS. IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A FERRY TYPE OPERATION FROM POINT A TO POINT B. BUT IF YOU START CHANGING IT AROUND, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE DIFFICULTY IF YOU DON'T HAVE A STANDARD. SO YOU NEED TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THE STANDARD. NOW, IN OUR APPLICATION, WE HAVE -- THE ONLY REASON WE END UP HAVING DASH ONE, DASH TWO, AND DASH THREE, FRANKLY IT'S BECAUSE WHEN WE START WORKING ON THE STANDARD WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WE WERE DOING AS A COMMITTEE AND EVERYBODY WENT LEFT AND RIGHT AND EVENTUALLY WE MADE SOME ERRORS AND DUE TO THE ERROR WE ENDED UP PROMISING DASH ONE PROMISING WE'D CORRECT IT TO DASH TWO AND DASH THREE BUT WE DIDN'T DO EITHER ONE. WE STILL HAVE SOME MISTAKES IN THAT. HOWEVER, THE POWER, WHICH IS THE CRITICAL POINT AND ALL WE SHOULD HAVE CONCENTRATED ON, THE POWER END OF IT IN DASH ONE IS COMPLETE AND VERY USEFUL STANDARD. THE COMMUNICATION END IS WHERE WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO RESOLVE IT AND IN MY OPINION IS NOT REALLY NEEDED. THAT'S THE WAY THE STANDARDS ARE WRITTEN NOW. IT SAYS IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO DO IT THEY APPLY DASH TWO STANDARD. NOW, THE DASH THREE STANDARD IS THE ONE THAT EVERY ONE OF YOU HERE FROM WHAT I HEARD YESTERDAY SHOULD REALLY BE INVOLVED WITH BECAUSE THE DASH THREE APPLIES TO ALL THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING. IT'S FOR ONE NVA AND LOWER BULLETS THAT ARE GOING TO BE STANDARDIZED. IF YOU DON'T GET INVOLVED, THE STANDARD WILL COME UP IN A WAY THAT WHATEVER YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE IT WHEN THE STANDARD IS APPROVED. AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE STANDARD IS NOWHERE NEAR WHAT YOU'RE DOING. IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU'RE IMAGINING, PARTICULARLY ON THE SHORE SIDE. SO I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO START GETTING INVOLVED IN DASH 3. JUST BRIEFLY, STANDARDS GOT STARTED WITH I.S.O. AND IEEE GOT STARTED AND THEY ALL STARTED INDEPENDENTLY. IT TOOK A WHILE FOR THEM TO REALIZE IT IS BEST THEY COMBINE TOGETHER WITH SOME DIFFICULTY. EVENTUALLY THEY COMBINED AND THEY CAME UP WITH ONE STANDARD. YOU CAN SEE THE MEMBERS THERE IN BOLD LETTERS. THE IMPORTANT ITEM THAT I WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU HERE IS THAT IT WASN'T ONE ENTITY OR TWO. IT WAS JUST ABOUT ALL THE VARIOUS ENTITIES THAT ARE INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT. THEY GOT INVOLVED. AND SOME GOT INVOLVED BUT NOT SO HEAVILY. SO IT'S A STANDARD THAT HAD AN INPUT FROM A VARIETY OF ORGANIZATIONS. A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT COMPANIES GOT INVOLVED AND OF COURSE SOME OF THEM MORE INVOLVED THAN OTHERS. JUST TO SHOW YOU HOW THE STANDARDIZATION PROCESS GOES, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WHEN WE DECIDED TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ON WHAT THE FREQUENCY SHOULD BE FOR THIS STANDARD, IT LOOKS LIKE THE MICROPHONE WENT OUT? WELL, IT'S STILL UP? OKAY. WHEN WE WERE DISCUSSING WHAT THE FREQUENCY SHOULD BE, YOU COULDN'T IMAGINE THE HOURS THAT WERE SPENT WHETHER IT SHOULD BE 60 CYCLE OR 50 CYCLE. SOME OF THE MEMBERS WERE MANAGER TYPES, NOT TECHNICAL. TRYING TO MEET THE SUBJECT, THEY WOULD SAY WHY DON'T YOU GUYS COMPROMISE? IT HELPS EITHER WAY. SO WE WERE HAVING THAT KIND OF DISCUSSION AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY IT TOOK SO LONG. AT THE END THE STANDARD SAYS SHORE POWER AND SHIP POWER FREQUENCY SHOULD MATCH. THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE. DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING BUT THAT SATISFIED THE MOST VOCAL PARTICIPANT AND REPRESENTS ALL THE PORTS AND THEY SAID JUST LEAVE IT TO THE INDIVIDUAL PORTS AND OPERATORS TO SETTLE THAT QUESTION. THAT'S WHERE WE ARE. THIS IS THE RESULT OF THE STANDARD. THAT IS THE IMPORTANT ONE AND THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE. THE SHIP COMES WITH ITS OWN PLUG THAT MATCHES THIS SOCKET. AND ANOTHER CONFUSION THAT ARISES IS THIS IS THE PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING THE ABC ROTATION FOR THE THREE PHASES AND WHEN THE SHIP PEOPLE DO IT THIS WAY, THEN THEY DON'T MATCH BECAUSE, REMEMBER, THE SHIP PLUG AND THE SHORE OUTLET HAVE TO BE MIRROR IMAGES. SO IT'S NOT THE SAME ONE. A AND C BASICALLY HAVE TO BE REVERSED. AGAIN, THERE WAS A LONG ARGUMENT AS TO WHICH IS RIGHT, WHICH IS WRONG. EVENTUALLY, WE WERE ABLE TO SOLVE IT BY PUTTING THE PICTURES IN THE STANDARD AND SAID, THIS IS FOR THE SHIP AND THIS IS FOR THE SHORE. THE BASIC PARAMETERS FOR THE STANDARD IS SEVEN AND A HALF NVA, 6.6 KV FOR CONTAINER SHIPS AND THE CRUISE SHIPS ARE LITTLE DIFFERENT. THERE IS A CONTINUITY CHECK, WIRING, THE TWO SMALL PINS, SO THAT ACCIDENTLY IF THE PLUG AND THE RECEPTACLES GET DISCONNECTED SHORE POWER WILL BE DE-ENERGIZED, AND THE SHIP WILL DO THE SAME THING. SO, BASICALLY YOU WANT TO PREVENT ANY ARCING AT THAT POINT. THAT'S ONE OF THE MANY SAFETY ISSUES THAT WERE PUT IN BUT THAT'S THE ONE THAT IS AT THE POINT OF COUPLING IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THAT'S ALL WE HAVE. WE HAVE NO COMMUNICATION SYSTEM IN THE PORT OF LONG BEACH. I'VE BEEN OPPOSE TODAY IT MAINLY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. THERE'S A LOT OF WORDING IN THE STANDARD. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. HOWEVER, IF IT MADE SENSE TO ANYONE, I TELL THEM I'VE GOT A CONDUIT. YOU CAN USE IT WITH ANY WIRE YOU WANT TO CONNECT ANY WAY YOU WANT TO BUT DON'T GET ME INVOLVED BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU WANT. I'LL GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE. IN THE STANDARD IT SAYS THE TEMPERATURE OF THE SHORE TRANSFORMER SHOULD BE TRANSMITTED TO THE SHIP. I ASKED THE SHIP GUYS WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IT? THEY SAID I DON'T KNOW. I SAID THEN TRANSMITTING IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. WHAT TEMPERATURE IS HIGH? WHAT IS THE POWER? WE DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE IN THE STANDARDS. SO THAT'S THE REASON WHY I DON'T USE IT. THEY WERE FORCED TO USE IT. NOT BECAUSE OF MY COUNTERPART AT THE PORT BUT BECAUSE A CUSTOMER INSISTED. AND AFTER HAVING TWO, THREE YEARS OF TROUBLE, NOW THEY'VE DISCAN ECTED THAT SYSTEM. OKAY. PHYSICALLY THIS IS WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO. WE HAVE IT BOXED LIKE THIS WITH TWO RECEPTACLES. THE STANDARD, ANY SHIP THAT COMPLIES WITH OKAY. THE STANDARD THEY CAN COME AND PLUG INTO THIS ONE AND WE HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT, WITH THOSE. WE'VE HAD I WOULD SAY LITERALLY OVER A THOUSAND CONNECTIONS BY NOW AND EVERYTHING IS WORKING OKAY. THIS IS HOW IT LOOKS ON THE WHARF WHEN ALL THE COVERS ARE CLOSED AND THE BOX IS UNDERNEATH. THAT WAY WE HAVE THE WHARF, WHICH IS THE MOST BUSY AREA IN THE PORT THAT CAN CONTINUE TO OPERATE. THEY CAN CONTINUE TO LOAD AND UNLOAD THE SHIPS. HERE IT IS WHEN THEY ARE MAKING THE CONNECTION. YOU CAN SEE THE CABLES ARE PRETTY HEAVY. IT TAKES TWO OR THREE PEOPLE TO WORK THEM INTO THE BOX. AND MAKE THE CONNECTION. AND HERE THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE THE CONNECTION. IT TAKES LITERALLY TWO PEOPLE. ONE TRYING TO MANAGE ONE CABLE AND THE OTHER PERSON TRYING TO PUSH THE PLUG IN. AND AS I SAID, FOR A CONTAINER SHIP IT REQUIRES TWO OF THOSE CABLES AND BOTH OF THEM HAVE TO BE IN PLACE REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH POWER THE SHIP NEEDS. OTHERWISE THE CONTROLS AND INSTALLATION BECOMES MUCH MORE COMPLICATED. NOW, THE FIRST TIME THEY DID THAT, THE FIRST GUY WHO IS TRYING TO PUSH THE PLUG IN, HE HAD A LOT OF DIFFICULTY. AND HE COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THE DIFFICULTY IS. AND IT'S A VERY, VERY MINOR DETAIL THAT WAS CAUSING THE PROBLEM. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE SOCKET IS SLANTED SLIGHTLY AT AN ANGLE DOWN SO THAT NO WATER WILL BE COLLECTED IN THE PRONGS. THE GUY DIDN'T KNOW SO HE IS TRYING TO PUSH IT IN STRAIGHT. AS HE IS TRYING TO PUSH IT STRAIGHT, IT'S NOT GOING IN. WHEN HE CAME OUT OF THE PIT AND I ASKED HIM, WHAT WAS THE TROUBLE? HE TRIED TO EXPLAIN IT TO ME. HE HAD SOME REALLY NASTY WORDS ABOUT WHOEVER DESIGNED IT AND ALL THAT. BUT WHEN WE EXPLAINED IT TO HIM THAT IT SLANTED FOR THAT PURPOSE, THEN IT WAS EASY TO PLUG IT IN. HERE'S THE CABLE MANAGER THAT GOES ON THE SHIP ACCORDING TO THE STANDARDS. IT SHOULD BE ON THE SHIP SO THEY CAN LOWER IT AND LIFT IT. IT HAS A LOT OF FUNCTIONS AND CAN TAKE THE SHIP UP OR DOWN OR SIDEWAYS. IT IS BEST TO BE PUT ON THE SHIP. LUCKILY FOR THE CONTAINER SHIPS WE WERE ABLE TO CONVINCE THEM THAT'S THE BEST WAY. BECAUSE ON THE WHARF, WE REALLY DON'T HAVE ROOM TO PUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT WITHOUT INTERFERING WITH THE PORT OPERATION. AND HERE IS ONE FOR THE CRUISE SHIP. THEIR STANDARD TURNED OUT TO BE MUCH DIFFERENT. PRETTY MUCH I CAN SUMMARIZE IT AND SAY IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A CRUISE SHIP APPLICATION YOU BETTER TALK TO THE PEOPLE. NO ONE ELSE KNOWS HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE A STANDARD NOW. IT TAKES A DIFFERENT PLUG. BUT THE IMPORTANT THING FOR YOU TO KNOW IS THAT THEIR CAPACITY OF 10 TO 20 M.V.A. AT THE OUTLET, IF YOU EVER COME UP WITH A SHIP THAT REQUIRES 20 M.B.A. AND YOU WANT TO TEST IT SOMEPLACE USUALLY THE CRUISE SHIP OUTLETS WILL BE ABLE TO ACCOMMODATE YOU. AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF RESEARCH MONEY ON SHORE INSTALLATION. THIS IS ONE OF OUR TERMINALS FOR HANDLING OIL TERMINALS AND AS YOU CAN SEE IN THIS CASE THE CABLE MANAGER IS ON THERE NOT ON THE SHIP ONLY BECAUSE THE SHIP CONVINCED US THEY HAVE A CRANE ON THE SHIP ALREADY AND THEY CAN USE IT FOR LIFTING THE CABLES TO THE SHIP, WHICH IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING RIGHT NOW. AND IN THEIR CASE IT'S 10 M.V.A., OUTSIDE THE STANDARD FROM THE CONTAINER SHIP, BUT IT'S THE STANDARD FOR THE OIL TERMINAL, OIL COMPANY. IT TAKES THREE PLUGS. SO FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I PUT THIS SLIDE IN THAT IF YOU WANT SHORE POWER AVAILABILITY, START LOOKING AT YOUR IMMEDIATE BOARDS. THEY PROBABLY HAVE SOME KIND OF FACILITY THEY CAN COOPERATE WITH YOU. I KNOW THE PORT OF LONG BEACH WILL COOPERATE WITH YOU AND WE HAVE MANY, MANY OUTLETS. I'LL BE SHARING THOSE WITH YOU. AND TYPICALLY FOR THOSE WHO MAY NOT BE AS FAMILIAR, A RECTANGULAR AREA LIKE THIS OR LARGE AREA WITH THE WATER FRONT IS WHAT WE CALL A TERMINAL WHERE THE SHIPS COME IN FOR LOADING AND UNLOADING. AND THE WHARF AREA IS THE NARROW SLIP RIGHT NEXT TO THE WATER. THAT'S WHERE ALL OF OUR PLUGS ARE. THEY'RE ALL RIGHT NEXT TO THE WHARF, ON THE WHARF. TYPICALLY WHERE THE SHIPS BERTH WE HAVE THIS FACILITY AND EACH SHIP WE HAVE MORE THAN ONE OUTLET. I'LL SHOW YOU A DIAGRAM OF THAT, ALSO. NOW, HERE IS OUR PORT IN THE YELLOW AND WHAT I WANT TO POINT OUT ARE THE DIFFERENT BERTHS WHERE WE HAVE THESE FACILITIES INSTALLED ALREADY. AS YOU CAN SEE THE ONE DOT SHOWS WHERE THE BERTH IS AND PEER C WHERE THEY SHOW TWO DOTS. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TWO OF THOSE OUTLETS. AS A MATTER OF FACT, EACH ONE OF THOSE DOTS MAY MEAN WE HAVE THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE OR SIX OUTLETS FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE SHIP. AND HERE'S PIER G. PIER J AREA. PIER T AGAIN. PIER A. BASICALLY, ALL OF THOSE FACILITIES WE HAVE THIS. JUST TO SHOW YOU ONE OF THEM, ESSENTIALLY IT TAKES A SUBSTATION, A SUBSTATION WHERE WE GET IT FROM THE UTILITY COMPANY, ALL THE POWER THAT WE NEED. THEN WE EXTEND IT TO THE VARIOUS BERTHS. SO HERE IS ONE BERTH WITH THREE OUTLETS. AND HERE IS THE SECOND BERTH WITH THREE OUTLETS. AND HERE'S ONE BERTH WITH THREE OUTLETS. AND EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE THREE OUTLETS, THE SHIP CAN USE ONLY ONE AT ANY ONE TIME. ONCE THEY PLUG INTO IT, THE OTHER TWO OUTLETS BECOME USELESS. HOWEVER, FOR YOUR INFORMATION AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE THREE SHIPS ALL THE TIME. WE HAVE ONE SHIP HERE OPERATING AND THIS, TOO, MAY BE AVAILABLE FOR TESTING PURPOSES. AND THAT'S REALLY THE MAIN REASON WHY I'M TRYING TO SHOW YOU THIS THAT YOU MAY HAVE AVAILABILITY TO DO SOME TESTING IF YOU WISH TO. AND HERE IS ANOTHER PIER WHERE -- PIER J. AGAIN, A TWO BERTH BUT AS YOU CAN SEE WE HAVE MANY OUTLETS FOR THE SHIP. HERE IS ANOTHER ONE SIMILARLY AND ANOTHER PIER G AND A PILOT DEMONSTRATION AS I TRY TO REFER HERE IS THAT IT'S AVAILABLE FOR YOU IF YOU WANT TO USE IT. IT DOESN'T COME FREE. SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE IS THE AVAILABILITY OF THAT BERTH FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO PLUG INTO IT. WHO WOULD PAY FOR THE COST OF IT. IT WILL BE EXPENSIVE WHEN YOU HAVE THE SHIP PLUGGED INTO IT FOR A DAY OR TWO. AND WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE LABOR? WHO IS GOING TO PROVIDE THE LABOR? IS IT THE PORT? YOU? SOMEONE ELSE? THE TERMINAL IMPACT ON IT. WHAT HAPPENS WITH, FOR INSTANCE, THE DEMAND CHARGES ONCE THE DEMAND GOES UP AND THE UTILITY HOLDS THAT DEMAND CHARGE FOR THE NEXT 12 MONTHS ON THAT TERMINAL? ONE THING I WOULD MENTION IS IF I WAS GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE PORT OR TENANT I WOULDN'T BRING UP THE SUBJECT UNLESS THEY BRING IT UP. AND IF THEY DON'T BRING IT UP, DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. AND THE PERCEIVED OR NOT PERCEIVED PROBLEMS, IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN YOU CONNECT THE SHIP AND THE SHORE AND THE CIRCUIT BREAKER STRIP WHOSE FAULT IS IT? IS IT THE SHIP OR THE SHORE? THE OLD POINTING FINGERS AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO WORK THROUGH THOSE. I WENT THROUGH THE SLIDES PRETTY FAST BECAUSE I WANT TO CONCENTRATE ON THIS. WE DIDN'T TALK MUCH ABOUT THIS KIND OF SUBJECT THAT I'M SURE YOU'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH. THERE ARE THREE ENTITIES WHEN YOU START DOING THE KIND OF WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING, THE KIND OF WORK THAT WE'RE DOING. THERE IS THE PORT FACILITY, THE SHIP, BASICALLY. THE SHIP CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO. THEY HAVE CERTAIN STANDARDS THEY HAVE TO MEET AND EVENTUALLY THEY MODIFY THEIR SHIP AND COME TO THE PORT. THE PORT DOES THE SAME THING. WE HAVE OUR REQUIREMENTS, OUR DESIGN, OUR STANDARDS. EVENTUALLY WE NEED TO ACCOMMODATE THE SHIP. THERE IS A POINT OF COUPLING THERE. POINT OF COUPLING NUMBER TWO WHERE THINGS HAVE TO MATCH. THEN OF COURSE THE PORT HAS TO COORDINATE WITH THE UTILITY COMPANY. AND THE SAME THING. NOW, THERE ISN'T ANY EFFORT THAT I KNOW OF, AND THAT'S PART OF THE EFFORT THAT HOPEFULLY EITHER MARAD OR YOU AS INDIVIDUALS OR OTHER STANDARD BODIES WILL GET INVOLVED IN TRYING TO COORDINATE THIS. AND THE ISSUE IS THIS. IN TRYING TO BE GREEN AND ALL THAT, SOMETIMES YOU END UP WASTING A LOT OF POWER. FOR INSTANCE, I SHOWED YOU A LOT OF TERMINALS WHERE WE CAN ACCOMMODATE THREE OR FOUR SHIPS. THAT MEANS SEVEN AND A HALF MVA EACH. THE PORT SAYS I NEED TO PROVIDE 30 MVA FOR THE SHIPS THAT COME IN. WE GO TO THE UTILITY COMPANY AND THE UTILITY COMPANY GIVES US 30 MVA. NO SHIPS ARE IN THE PORT. GUESS WHAT? THE UTILITY IS COMMITTED TO GIVE US 30 M.V.A. AND IF NOTHING ELSE YOU GET A LOT OF TRANSFORMERS IN THE ABILITY AND THE BERTH. AND THEY'RE ON ALL THE TIME. EVEN THE MOST EFFICIENT TRANSFORMERS, 99% OR MORE, 1% OF 6 1/2 IS 75 K.V.A. DAY AND NIGHT IT IS BEING CONSUMED DOING NOTHING. WE NEED TO REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THOSE. WHAT DO WE DO? WHAT CAN WE DO? NOW, WE CAN WORK AS A GROUP AND COME UP WITH IDEAS BUT IF YOU DON'T AS AN INDIVIDUAL YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. FOR INSTANCE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY LEFT ME ALONE, I KNOW WE DON'T GIVE THREE SHIPS, FOUR SHIPS AT A TIME. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS 7 1/2, OR FOUR, OR THREE. IT IS WHATEVER NUMBER I GIVE THEM THEY ACCEPT. THERE IS NO STANDARD. I GO TO BUILDING AND SAFETY AND SAY I HAVE ONE M.V.A. SHIP COMING IN, FOUR OF THEM IS FOUR M.V.A. SO I GO TO THE UTILITY AND GET FOUR M.V.A. SERVICE BUT THE SYSTEM IS DESIGNED FOR SEVEN AND A HALF IF THEY WANT TO GO. THAT IS NO PROBLEM. SO THE UTILITY COMPANY GIVES ME FOUR M.V.A. AND THE SHIPS COME IN AND PLUG IN AND AS LONG AS YOU DON'T TELL ANYONE ELSE, YOU'RE OKAY. BUT THE MINUTE YOU TELL SOMEONE SUCH AS THE SHIP THAT I'VE GOT FOUR M.V.A. AT THE UTILITY, THEY START RUNNING INTO PROBLEMS. IF YOU DON'T TELL THEM THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT AT ALL. AS A MATTER OF FACT, TWO OF OUR TERMINALS ARE DESIGNED EXACTLY THAT WAY AND THEY'VE BEEN WORKING FINE FOR YEARS. THEY DON'T KNOW. THEY ARE HAPPY WITH THEM. THE POINT IS THAT, YES, COLLECTIVELY WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH GOOD STANDARDS WE CAN ALL APPLY, BUT IN SHORT OF THAT, THE PRINCIPLES, THE HONORS OF THE BOAT, THE TERMINAL, THE MANAGERS, THE GUYS THAT ARE WRITING THE CHECK, THAT'S A LITTLE TRICKY UNTIL STANDARDS COME AROUND. THAT'S ABOUT ALL MY PRESENTATION. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. [APPLAUSE] 

>> EXCELLENT. THANK YOU, BEN. NEXT UP WE HAVE LARRY MACHAK, FROM AMERICAN TRACTION SYSTEMS. HE'S THE BUSINESS MANAGER FOR AMERICAN TRACTION SYSTEMS. HE'S HELD THAT POSITION FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS. PREVIOUSLY HOLDING THE POSITION OF GENERAL MANAGER FROM 2008 WHEN A.T.S. WAS INCORPORATED. MR. MACHAK HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THE ADVANCEMENT OF ALTERNATIVE FUEL VEHICLES FOR OVER 30 YEARS AS PROJECT AND RESEARCH ENGINEER, PRODUCT MANAGER, GENERAL MANAGER, AND ALSO IN TECHNICAL SALES. 

MR. MACHAK: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING. FROM THE START, I GIVE A LITTLE BACKGROUND OF A.T.S. AND THEN SOME OF THE PROJECTS WE'VE WORKED ON. OUR COMPANY GOES BACK TO 1968 WHEN OUR OWNER STARTED ELECTRONICS IN SOUTH AFRICA. HE IS STILL ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN OUR COMPANY AND IS THE C.E.O. AND SOLE OWNER. WE ARE A PRIVATELY OWNED AMERICAN CORPORATION. IN THE MID 1970'S WHEN APART HYDE WAS COMING INTO PLAY IN -- APARTHEID WAS COMING INTO PLAY IN SOUTH AFRICA HE DECIDED TO MOVE THE COMPANY TO CANADA AND AT THAT POINT SOLD OFF IN SOUTH AFRICA. IT IS STILL GOING STRONG TODAY. IN 1986 HE MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES. HE BECAME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AT THAT TIME AND MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES. THE COMPANY LEFT BEHIND IN CANADA IS STILL IN BUSINESS. I JOINED THE ORGANIZATION AT THAT TIME IN 1987. IN 1992, ONCE AGAIN A LITTLE CHANGE IN COURSE. HE WANTED TO GET OUT OF INDUSTRIAL CONTROLS AND FOCUS ON PROPULSION SYSTEMS AND TRACTION SYSTEMS. OUR MAIN PURPOSE AT THAT TIME WAS TO PROVIDE PROPULSION SYSTEMS FOR UNDERGROUND COAL MINING. IN A COAL MINE YOU CAN'T USE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES BECAUSE OF THE METHANE GAS AND COAL DUST, SO ALL THE EQUIPMENT UNDERGROUND IN COAL MINES IS BATTERY POWERED OR TRAILING CABLE POWERED. IN 2008, AS A VISIONARY, HE SAW COAL MINING IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD PROBABLY BE BEAT UP PRETTY BAD SO WE FORMED AMERICAN TRACTION SYSTEMS TAKING THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE DEVELOPED FOR UNDERGROUND MINING AND BRINGING IT ABOVE GROUND. NOW, WE WERE PREPARING FOR THAT DURING THE TIME BECAUSE WE WERE WORKING WITH, WE DID ALL PROPULSION SYSTEMS FOR THE FUEL CELL BUSES AND WERE PART OF THE GROUP THAT DESIGNED AND DEVELOPED THE SWITCH RELUCTANCE MOTOR CONTROLLER FOR THE E.B. 1. GENERAL MOTORS DIDN'T USE IT AT THAT TIME BUT WE WERE ONE OF THE GROUPS TO WORK ON IT. WE ALSO DEVELOPED THE POWER SUPPLY SYSTEM A.P.U. AND PROPULSION SYSTEM FOR ALLISON TRANSMISSION FOR THEIR SIRIUS BUSES AT THAT TIME. SOME OF THE MILESTONES AND THESE ARE JUST THE KEY MILESTONES. IN 2008 WHEN WE STARTED OUR TWO MAIN CONTRACTS WAS JUNIOR, THE FIRST HYBRID PROPULSION FERRY IN THE UNITED STATES AND WE ALSO LANDED THE CONTRACT FOR THE 32 RED STREET CARS THAT RUN UP AND DOWN CANAL STREET IN NEW ORLEANS. 2009 WE WORKED WITH OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY AND DEVELOPED TWO HYDROGEN FUEL CELL POWERED VEHICLES. THEY BOTH SET LAND SPEED RECORDS. THE BUCKEYE BULLET SET THE RECORD OF 302 MILES AN HOUR AND THE HYDROGEN POWERED, FUEL CELL POWERED FUSION SET IT AT 207 MILES PER HOUR FOR PASSENGER CARS. 2010 WE WORKED WITH NORFOLK SOUTHERN AND DEVELOPED THE FIRST PURE BATTERY POWERED LOCOMOTIVE. THIS IS USED AT THEIR FACILITY IN ALTOONA. THE SWITCH OF LOCOMOTIVES IN AND OUT OF THE REPAIR SHOP DURING THE DAY AND AT NIGHT IT RECHARGES WHEN THE UTILITY POWER IS LOW. 2011 IS WHEN WE DID THE CRUISES, THE NEW YORK HYBRID. 2012 WE WORKED TO DEVELOP A PERMANENT HYBRID ULTRA LIGHT VEHICLE. WE DELIVERED SIX OF THOSE SYSTEMS. WE DID THE POWER MANAGEMENT AND PROPULSION ON THOSE. THOSE WERE PERMANENT MAGNET MACHINES. 2012 WE DID THE HYBRIDS TO A HORN BLOWER THAT GO OUT TO ALCATRAZ. 2013 WE REPOWERED THE MILITARY COMMAND VESSEL THE SIX MEGAWATT T.P. SYSTEM, MEGAWATERS, THEN 2015 REPOWERED THE AFRICAN FISHERIES RESEARCH VEHICLE THE AFRICANA. NOW, DURING THIS TIME MY MAIN CUSTOMER BASE IS RAIL. DURING THIS TIME WE'RE ALSO DEVELOPING OUR RAIL PRODUCT AND AS OF A FEW MONTHS AGO DELIVERED OUR 150TH PROPULSION SYSTEM TO MODERNIZE THE LEGACY LOCOMOTIVES OR TO, ON SOME NEW LOCOMOTIVES. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BATTERIES AND MARINES. THESE WERE THE FOUR MARINE HYBRID AND BATTERY PROJECTS WE WORKED ON. ALL OF THEM WITH H.M.S. OKAY. SO LET'S TALK ABOUT HYBRID PROPULSION SYSTEMS. WHAT IS A HYBRID PROPULSION SYSTEM? WELL, HYBRID TAKES MULTIPLE ENERGY SOURCES -- GENERATORS, BATTERIES, CAPACITORS, SOLAR PANELS, FUEL CELLS, TURBINES, SHORE POWER, NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS. WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE ENERGY SOURCE IS. IT GOES THROUGH A POWER CONVERSION STAGE. AMERICAN TRACTION SYSTEMS DESIGNS AND DEVELOPS AND MANUFACTURES THE POWER CONVERSION. WE DON'T TAKE THIRD-PARTY EQUIPMENT AND REPURPOSE IT. THIS IS ALL PURPOSE FILLED EQUIPMENT AND THAT GOES OUT AND RUNS MULTIPLE LEVELS. THIS IS A LITTLE BIT CUMBERSOME. I'LL KIND OF REDUCE IT DOWN. WE'RE JUST GOING TO LOOK AT GENERATORS, BATTERIES, SOLAR PANELS, AND SHORE POWER. YOU CAN SEE BIDIRECTIONAL COMPONENTS AND SINGLE DIRECTIONAL COMPONENTS. ALL OF OUR POWER CONVERSION DEVICES ARE INHERENTLY BIDIRECTIONAL SO WE CAN RUN THE GENERATOR AS BOTH A GENERATOR OR LOAD. THE BATTERIES OF COURSE WE CAN CHARGE AND DISCHARGE THE BATTERIES. SOLAR PANELS IS ONLY ONE DIRECTION. THE SUN LIGHT CREATES ENERGY. YOU CAN'T PUSH ENERGY BACK INTO IT AND MAKE SUN LIGHT. YOU MAKE SMOKE BUT REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. THE SHORE POWER IS ALSO BIDIRECTIONAL. NOW, THIS HASN'T BEEN UTILIZED YET BUT YOU CAN IN CASE OF SAY A NATURAL DISASTER USE THE ENERGY SOURCES ONBOARD THE SHIP TO SET UP A MICRO GRID ONSHORE, TO SET UP SOME EMERGENCY POWER ONSHORE IF NECESSARY. THAT OF COURSE TAKES A LOT OF WORK WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE ON SHORE BUT IT IS A POSSIBILITY. PROPELLERS AND THRUSTERS ARE ALSO BIDIRECTIONAL. THEY CAN BE A LOAD OR THEY CAN BE A POWER SOURCE. IF YOUR -- IT DISAPPEARS AND YOU HAVE A STRONG CURRENT YOU CAN RECOVER SOME OF THE ENERGY THROUGH THE MOTOR AS A GENERATOR BACK INTO THE POWER BUS. NOW, THE POWER CONVERSION SECTION IS REFERRED TO AS THE POWER BUS. SOME PEOPLE USE AN A.C. POWER BUS. SOME USE A D.C. POWER BUS. WE PREFER USING A D.C. POWER BUS. THAT WAY WE HAVE A LOT OF CONTROL OVER THE SYSTEM. WE DON'T HAVE TO ADD A LOT OF TRANSFORMERS TO THE SYSTEM. ALL RIGHT. NOW, LET'S TAKE POWER CONVERSION AND CHANGE THAT TO POWER MANAGEMENT. BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY WHAT YOU NEED TO DO. YOU HAVE ALL THESE POWER SOURCES AND YOU NEED TO MANAGE IT. YOU NEED TO MANAGE IT FOR THE ENTIRE SHIP. SO THE POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM TO MAINTAIN THE MOST EFFICIENT OPERATION OF THE VESSEL. THAT MAKES SENSE. SO WHAT IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY OF THE POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM? ANY IDEAS ON THAT? WELL, WE THINK THAT IT'S TO NEVER COMPROMISE THE SAFETY OF THE VESSEL EVEN IF IT COMPROMISES THE EFFICIENCY OF THE VESSEL. SAFETY IS THE NUMBER ONE CONCERN ONBOARD THE SHIP. ON OUR RAIL PROGRAMS WE'RE DOING A PROGRAM IN THE U.K.. IT MEETS BASICALLY INTEGRITY LEVEL TWO WHICH SAYS THERE CAN BE NO UNINTENDED MOVEMENT OF THE VEHICLE WITHOUT A HUMAN COMMAND TO DO SO. SO THE ENTIRE SYSTEM NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, ANY SHORT CIRCUIT, LIGHTNING HITS, SOMEBODY DROPPING A WRENCH SOMEWHERE, THE VEHICLE CANNOT MOVE UNLESS THE HUMAN COMMANDS IT TO MOVE. SAFETY IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY. OKAY. THE SECOND PRIORITY OF THE POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM IN OUR OPINION , TO MAXIMIZE THE LIFE OF THE BATTERY. IF YOU HAVE BATTERIES ONBOARD THEY ARE AN EXPENSIVE PART OF THE SYSTEM. THEY ARE A DELICATE PART OF THE SYSTEM. SO BY USING THE POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM PROPERLY, YOU MAXIMIZE THE LIFE AND THE USAGE OF THE BATTERY. GET THE MOST ENERGY YOU CAN AT ALL TIMES. THE THIRD PRIORITY, YOU GET TO OPTIMIZE THE AVAILABLE ENERGY TO ACHIEVE THE MOST EFFICIENT OPERATION OF THE VEHICLE. THIS IS A TYPICAL LINE DIAGRAM OF THE PROPULSION SYSTEMS WE PROVIDE. THERE ARE TWO MAIN. YOU HAVE THE CENTER WITH A LOT OF POWER CONVERSION. THESE ISOLATION CONTACTERS ARE MOTORIZED AND CAN BE ACTIVATED FROM THE BRIDGE IN CASE THE CAPTAIN SEES A PROBLEM WITH A GENERATOR OR PROP. HE CAN TOTALLY CUT OFF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM AND YOU HAVE YOUR REDUNDANCY. THE SHIP CAN STILL RUN OFF THE STAR BOARD SIDE OR THE THRUSTER. YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOSE BOTH GENERATORS AND BOTH PROPULSION MODULES AND THE SHIP WILL STILL BE ABLE TO OPERATE JUST OFF THE THRUST TORSE KEEP THE VESSEL SAFE. IF YOU HAPPEN TO LOSE A GENERATOR, YOU CAN STILL USE THE GENERATOR FROM THE STAR BOARD SIDE TO RUN THE PORT, PROP, AND ALL THE COMPONENTS IN BETWEEN. WE'VE BUILT A LOT OF REDUNDANCY INTO OUR SYSTEM FOR SAFETY AND CONTROL OF THE VESSEL. OKAY. NOW, THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF INSIDE THE ENGINE ROOM. THESE ARE THE MOTORS THAT GO OUT TO THE PROP. THESE ARE THE DIESEL ENGINES WITH THE GENERATORS. AND THIS IS OUR PROPULSION SYSTEM IN THE CENTER. THIS IS A LOCAL CONTROL BOX HERE. YOU HAVE FULL CONTROL OF THE ENGINE ROOM FROM WITHIN THE ENGINE ROOM. IF YOU LOSE COMMUNICATION TO THE BRIDGE, IF YOU LOSE CONTROL FROM THE BRIDGE YOU CAN EITHER RUN IT FROM THIS STATION HERE OR THIS STATION HERE IS ALL HARD WIRED SWITCHES. JUST GOOD OLD TOGGLE SWITCHES AND ROTARY SWITCHES THAT CAN COMMAND ALL OF THE PROPULSION SYSTEMS. ONE THING I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT WITH OUR DESIGN ON THE SHIP IS THE TWO PROPULSION MOTORS AND THE TWO A.C. INDUCTION GENERATORS ARE THE EXACT SAME MOTOR. WE DID THIS FOR SEVERAL REASONS. NUMBER ONE WE WERE ABLE TO PURCHASE A LARGE AMOUNT OF MOTORS FOR BOTH APPLICATIONS AND, TWO, FOR REPAIRS AND SPARES. YOU JUST KEEP THE SAME MOTOR. OKAY. SO HERE'S OUR PROPULSION SYSTEM. JUST AS I SHOWED ON THE LINE DIAGRAM IT ALSO IS BROKEN INTO THREE SECTIONS. EACH OF THESE SECTIONS ARE ABOUT FOUR FOOT SQUARE. THEY CAN BE ASSEMBLED LIKE THIS IN OUR FACTORY OR WE CAN DROP THEM AND DO THE ASSEMBLING IN THE SHIP. ALL OF THESE THEN HAVE THE STAINLESS STEEL SKIN AROUND IT SO NOTHING IS EXPOSED. AND THAT KIND OF SHOWS THE BREAKUP. WE HAVE A LOT OF D.C. BUS CAPACITYORS AND ALL THE DIFFERENT COMPONENTS. LET'S TALK ABOUT GENERATION AND PROPULSION. NOW, AS I SAID BEFORE, WE USE THE EXACT SAME MOTOR FOR THE PROPULSION AND FOR THE GENERATOR. THEREFORE WE CAN USE THE EXACT SAME MODULE FOR THE PROPULSION AND GENERATION. OKAY. SO THESE ARE BIDIRECTIONAL AS I SAID BEFORE. NOW, BECAUSE WE USE A CONSTANT D.C. BUS WE CAN DO VARIABLE SPEED ON THE ENGINE. WE CAN ALWAYS KEEP THE DIESEL ENGINES RUNNING AT OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE. SO WE COULD ESSENTIALLY RUN BETWEEN 600 AND 1800 R.P.M. FROM THE DIESEL ENGINES TO PROVIDE THE POWER TO THE BUS. AND THEY ARE AVAILABLE FOR BIDIRECTIONAL POWER FLOW. WE DEVELOP THIS BIDIRECTIONAL INDUCTION GENERATOR CONCEPT FOR THE LOCOMOTIVE MARKET. THERE ARE A LOT OF LOCOMOTIVES WITH MULTIPLE SETS ONBOARD. BY HAVING OUR EQUIPMENT RUN BIDIRECTIONALLY WE CAN TAKE ENERGY OFF THE BUS AND SPEED UP THE DIESEL GENERATOR BEFORE YOU APPLY THE DIESEL FUEL TO IT. SO ESSENTIALLY YOU GET A SMOKELESS START TO THE DIESEL ENGINE. YOU DON'T GET THE BIG BURP OF DIESEL. IT'S BETTER ON THE LIFE OF THE DIESEL ENGINE. YOU DON'T NEED A STARTER MOTOR. NOW, THE DIESEL GENERATION ALSO OPERATES AS YOU WOULD ON A CLASS A TRUCK AS A JAKE BRAKE. IF YOU GO INTO A CRASH HOP SITUATION ALL AFTER SUDDEN YOU HAVE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENERGY GOING ON TO THE BUS, WHICH YOU MUST CONTROL. NOW, WE'LL TAKE A LOT OF THAT AND RUN IT TO THE BATTERIES AND CHARGE THE BATTERIES, SOME TO RUN TO THE SHIP SUPPLIES AND THE HOUSE LOADS ONBOARD THE SHIP. BUT IF YOU STILL HAVE THAT EXCESSIVE ENERGY WE CAN BACK FEED THROUGH THE GENERATOR INTO THE DIESEL ENGINE AND USE THAT TO ABSORB A LOT OF THE ENERGY. THE PROPULSION SYSTEM IS PRETTY STRAIGHT FORWARD. AGAIN, BIDIRECTIONAL, TAKE POWER OFF THE D.C. BUS, CONVERT IT TO A.C., AND RUN THE PROPULSION MOTOR. NOW, THE POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CONTINUALLY MONITORS LOAD REQUIREMENTS TO ASSURE THE CAPACITY OF ALL THE POWER IS BEING APPLIED AND ISN'T TOO MUCH. SO IF THE MAXIMUM POWER LIMIT -- THE MANAGE FROM THE CONTROL STATION OR IS MULTIPLIED PROPORTIONATELY TO REMAIN WITHIN SYSTEM LIMITS. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THE EXPULSION CONVERTORS TO DELIVER POWER BACK TO THE D.C. BUS. YOU CAN USE IT TO RUN THE LOADS ONBOARD, USE IT TO CHARGE THE BATTERY, ALSO. THIS IS THE POWER CONVERSION, THE BIDIRECTIONAL AND SINGLE DIRECTION CHOPPERS AND THE CONVERTORS. THE SINGLE DIRECTION CHOPPERS ARE AROUND FUEL CELLS OR SOLAR PANELS. WE SET IT UP SO OPT RATING VOLTAGE OF THE SOLAR PANELS AND FUEL CELLS IS LOWER THAN WHAT THE D.C. BUS IS. NOW, WE DO THAT SO WE CAN ALWAYS CONTROL THE CURRENT TO AND FROM THE D.C. BUS. THE VOLTAGE IS LOWER FROM THE SOLAR CELL, WE CAN BOOST THAT VOLTAGE UP TO MATCH THE D.C. BUS. NOW, WITH THE SOLAR PANELS AND THE FUEL CELL, THAT ONE TAKES A NUMBER ONE PRIORITY OF ENERGY USAGE AND THE POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM. WHENEVER THE SUN IS OUT AND PRODUCING ELECTRICITY YOU WANT TO USE A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THAT ENERGY YOU'RE GETTING FOR FREE. WHEN THE FUEL CELL IS OPERATING YOU WANT TO USE A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THAT ENERGY THAT THE FUEL CELL, CLEAN ENERGY IS PRODUCING. FOR THOSE TWO, I KIND OF USE THEM INTERCHANGEABLEY. THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME TYPE OF POWER SOURCE. BUT WHENEVER THAT POWER IS AVAILABLE, YOU CAN GRAB IT AND USE IT A HUNDRED PERCENT OF IT. NOW, WE HAVE THE BIDIRECTIONAL BATTERY CHOPPERS AND THAT INTERFACES TO THE BATTERY. NOW, AGAIN WE KEEP THE BATTERY VOLTAGE LOWER THAN THE D.C. BUS VOLTAGE. THAT WAY WE'RE IN BOOST MODE WHEN WE'RE TAKING ENERGY FROM THE BATTERIES. WE BOOST THE VOLTAGE UP TO MEET THE D.C. BUS AND THEN WHEN WE'RE CHARGING THE BATTERIES WE'RE IN BUCK MODE SO WE TAKE THE D.C. VOLTAGE DOWN AND CONTROL IT TO THE CHARGE OF THE BATTERY. WHILE WE'RE DOING THIS WE ARE FULLY INTEGRATED WITH BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS. THE BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM WILL SET THE VOLTAGE LIMIT THAT WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR THE BATTERY SYSTEM SO WE ALWAYS WERE VERY MINDFUL AND WE LISTENED TO WHAT THE BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM IS TELLING US. SO THAT HELPS ALSO WITH THE LIFE OF THE BATTERIES AND CONVERTING AS MUCH ENERGY BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE BATTERIES AS YOU CAN. AND THEN IN SOME CASES WE'LL HAVE A DUAL INVERTER ONBOARD. THIS WILL DO THE HOTEL, THE INTERFACE TO THE HOTEL LOADS AND THE SHORT SUPPLY ON THE SHIP AND ALSO RUN THE BATTLE THRUST. NOW, OF COURSE, YOU WANT TO USE SHORE POWER AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO CHARGE THE BATTERIES BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 25% OF THE COST FROM SHORE POWER TO CHARGE BATTERIES VERSUS RUNNING YOUR DIESEL ENGINE ONBOARD TO RUN THE BATTERIES, TO CHARGE THE BATTERIES. AND, AGAIN, THAT'S JUST A PICTURE OF THE RACK. OKAY. SO THE ENERGY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM OF THE HYBRID VESSEL MUST BE A BLEND OF OPTIMAL CONTROL AND REAL-TIME PERFORMANCE. OKAY. PASSENGER FERRY TAKES THE SAME ROUTE EVERY DAY. A BUS TAKES THE SAME ROUTE EVERY DAY. WITH THE BUS YOU CAN PREDICT WHAT ENERGY IS REALLY GOING TO BE NEEDED BECAUSE YOU'RE RUNNING ON A ROAD. YOU HAVE A 2% GRADE HERE. WITH THE SHIP, THE VESSEL POWER MANAGEMENT HAS UNIQUE CHALLENGES BECAUSE THE OPERATION CONDITIONS OF THE GIVEN ROUTE IS DYNAMIC. TAKING THE SAME ROUTE EVERY DAY AT THE SAME TIME YOU WILL NOT HAVE THE SAME CONDITIONS ON THE SHIP. YOU'LL HAVE DIFFERENT CURRENTS. YOU'LL HAVE DIFFERENT WINDS. THE TEMPERATURE IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT. THERE'S GOING TO BE DEBRIS IN THE WATER YOU HAVE TO GO AROUND. SO YOU CAN'T REALLY JUST SET UP, SAY, A CANNED PERFORMANCE PROFILE TO MANAGE THE ENERGY. IT MUST BE DYNAMIC. YOU MUST REACT TO ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS AT ALL TIMES. SO AS A REVIEW, YOU NEVER COMPROMISE THE SAFETY OF THE VESSEL. YOU WANT TO MAXIMIZE THE LIFE OF THE BATTERIES. OPTIMIZE THE EFFICIENCY OF THE VESSEL. THE GENERATORS ARE NOW CONTROLLED TO RUN AT THEIR PEAK PERFORMANCE. USING BATTERIES TO BALANCE THE LOAD AND MEET PEAK LOAD DEMAND. THE BATTERY IS GOING TO SEND ENERGY TO THE PROPULSION SYSTEM MUCH QUICKER THAN THE DIESEL ENGINE CAN RESPOND. SO IN PURE BATTERY MODE THAT IS ONE THING BUT WHEN YOU'RE DOING A BLENDED MODE OR HYBRID LOAD, YOU WANT TO KEEP THE GENERATORS RUNNING IN THEIR SWEET SPOT AT ALL TIMES AND THEN USE THE BATTERY TO AUGMENT THE POWER THAT YOU NEED. BATTERY ONLY MODE PROVIDES THE HIGHER QUALITY EXPERIENCE TO THE QUIET RUNNING AND USING SHORE POWER TO CHARGE THE BATTERY IS THE MOST ECONOMICAL WAY OF CHARGING THE BATTERY. ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME SUCCESS HERE. LET'S TALK ABOUT ALCATRAZ . IN THE SUM TER'S ABOUT 5200 PASSENGERS A DAY ALL THROUGH SPRING, ABOUT 2,000 PASSENGERS A DAY. ROUGHLY A BILLION PASSENGERS A YEAR. OVER 5 MILLION PASSENGERS ON THE HYBRID SHIP PROGRAM WHICH IS NO PROPULSION ISSUES, NO PROBLEMS -- LET ME REPHRASE. WE HAVE HAD PROBLEMS. OF COURSE YOU HAVE PROBLEMS BUT NOTHING THAT HAS COMPROMISED THE OPERATION OF THE VESSEL. ADVANTAGES TO THE HYBRID PROPULSION SYSTEM, 50% LESS WHICH MEANS LESS EMISSION ALSO BY 50%. LOWER LEVELS THAN THE CONVENTIONAL SHIP WITH THE TWO SMALL SETS MAKE MUCH LESS NOISE, VIBRATIONS, THAN ONE LARGE GENERATOR AND ZERO EMISSIONS, FUEL CONSUMPTION, EXHAUST FUEL DURING BOARDING. THE OTHER NICE ASPECT IS WHEN YOUR PASSENGERS ARE COMING ON URFERY AND YOU HAND THEM THEIR GLASS OF CHAMPAGNE TO WELCOME THEM ABOARD THEY DON'T GET HANDED DIESEL FUMES. A VERY NICE EXPERIENCE, NICE AND QUIET AHN CLEAN. IT'S ALMOST LIKE A SAIL BOAT LEAVING THE DOCK. ONCE YOU HIT SAN FRANCISCO BAY OR WHATEVER WATERWAY YOUR A HE IN THAT'S WHEN THE DIESEL ENGINES KICK IN. PASSENGERS CAN'T EVEN TELL BECAUSE THE SHIP IS ALREADY MOVING AND VIBRATING. THE SAME THING WHEN YOU GO TO YOUR DESTINATION. YOU CAN SHUT OFF THE DIESELS, COME IN ON BATTERY POWER, AND IT'S A NICE, GLIDE INTO THE DOCK. SOME OPERATIONAL BENEFITS OF THE HYBRID SYSTEM. THE SYSTEM WE'VE BEEN USING HAS TWO DIESEL ENGINES. ONLY ONE IS OPERATING UNDER NORMAL CRUISE CONDITIONS. THROUGH POWER MANAGEMENT WE BALANCE THE OPERATING TIME BETWEEN THE TWO ENGINES. YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY DOUBLING THE MAINTENANCE PERIOD ON THE DIESEL ENGINES BY RUNNING ONE WHEN YOU ONLY NEED TO. YOU GET BETTER ENERGY EFFICIENCY. WHEN THE CAPTAIN NEEDS MORE POWER WE GRAB IT OFF THE BATTERY SO THE DIESEL ENGINE STAYS IN ITS SWEET SPOT AND SLOWLY RAMPS UP AND THEN YOU CAN TAKE THE BATTERIES OFFLINE. OF COURSE YOU MINIMIZE POLLUTION DUE TO THE EFFICIENT OPERATION OF THE DIESEL ENGINE AT THAT POINT. YOU ELIMINATE THE AUXILIARY GENERATOR. THE ENGINES ARE DECOUPLED FROM THE PROPELLER. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT NO ONE HAS TOUCHED ON YET. NOW YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ALIGNING THE ENGINE, GEAR BOX, AND PROPELLER SHAFT. THE DIESEL ENGINES CAN BE MOUNTED ANYWHERE ONBOARD THE VESSEL. THAT WAY YOU CAN PUT IT IN AN OPTIMAL PLACE FOR VENTILATION, USE IT FOR BALANCING OF THE SHIP. YOU CAN DO COMPLETE VIBRATION ICE LAGS FROM THE HULL BECAUSE THEY AREN'T HARD MOUNTED TO THE PROP. ALSO WITH THE A.C. PROPULSION SYSTEM YOU GET QUIET AND DO COMPLETE VIBRATION SMOOTH REVERSAL BECAUSE THERE IS NO GEAR BOX, NO TRANSMISSION. YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH. IT'S A DIRECT, ELECTRIC REVERSAL OF THE SYSTEM. I JUST WANT TO TOUCH ON A COUPLE OF THE LARGER PROJECTS WE'VE DONE FOR MORE BACKGROUND EXPERIENCE ON THE PROPULSION. THIS IS A MILITARY SEA LIFT COMMAND U.S.S. WATERS. THIS IS NAVY PRUDE DRIVE SYSTEM. TWO, 4,000 HORSEPOWER PROPULSION MOTORS AND FOUR THRUSTERS. WE MAP ADGED -- MANAGE THE MEGAWATT SYSTEMS THAT POWER THE PROPULSION. THIS IS THE AFRICANA. THIS IS A SOUTH AFRICAN NAVAL RESEARCH VESSEL. THIS IS PART OF THE FISHERIES PROGRAM. THEY GO OUT ON SIX-WEEK CRUISES AND GATHER FISH TO HELP WITH SUSTAINABLE FISHING IN THE INDIAN OCEAN AND ATLANTIC OCEAN. THIS IS A D.C. TO D.C. SYSTEM. ESSENTIALLY THE SAME SYSTEM WE HAVE IN THE H.M.S. VESSELS BUT SCALED UP QUITE A BIT. THE DUAL MEGAWATT PROPULSION THRUSTERS AND WE ALSO CONTROL THE WINCHES AND OTHERS ON BOARD. THEANING YOU VERY MUCH. [APPLAUSE] 

>> EXCELLENT. THANK YOU, LARRY. AND NOW TO TALK ABOUT QUALIFICATION TESTING WE HAVE MR. CHAUK NG, WHO HAS -- IS CURRENTLY WITH S.W.R.I. DEVELOPING ADVANCED POWER TECHNOLOGY OAF OVER 20 YEARS MOSTLY IN THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY. A LOT OF MANAGEMENT EXPERIENCE DEVELOPING VEHICLE DEMONSTRATION PROGRAMS SUCH AS THE HYBRID ELECTRIC VEHICLE AND FUEL CELL VEHICLES. DELIVERED PROTOTYPE MILITARY VEHICLES, LIGHT MOBILITY VEHICLE FOR TESTING. PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT TEAM FOR CHASSIS ENGINEERING ON THE GENERAL MOTORS E.V. 1. EXTENSIVE, ALSO STARTED HIS CAREER WORKING IN A RESEARCH LAB FOR GUIDANCE CONTROL SYSTEMS SO AT S.W.R.I., THOUGH, CHAUK HAS LED THE ENERGY STORAGE TECHNOLOGY SYSTEM TO SUPPORT THE INDUSTRY AND GOVERNMENT'S RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT ON ENERGY STORAGE TECHNOLOGY INCLUDING SAFETY TESTING, BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT AND BENCHMARKING. CHEMISTRY RELATED SERVICES AND MANY OTHER TEST PROTOCOL DEVELOPMENTS AND SYSTEM INTEGRATION. THAT'S ALSO KIND OF STARTED OFF -- GRADUATED FROM WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY AND ALSO GOT AN M.B.A. AND HIS M.S. AND B.S. IN MECHANICAL ENGINEERING AT NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY. 

>> THANK YOU FOR THE KIND INTRODUCTION. GOOD MORNING, EVERYONE. IT WAS A VERY WELL RUN WORKSHOP. APPRECIATE BEING AT THE ACTIVITIES AND VARIOUS REPRESENTATIVES FROM VARIETIES OF FOLKS. THIS IS A NEW AREA I AM EXPOSING TO ESPECIALLY IN THE APPLICATION OF ENERGY STORAGE AREAS SO IT IS GOOD LEARNING FOR ME. I JUST WANT TO MENTION THE INTENTION OF THIS GRAPH HERE IS TO TRY TO SHOW WHEN WE ARE CONDUCTING TESTS WE WANT TO HAVE A VISUAL SO WHEN WE DO THE VIDEO AND THINGS LIKE THAT WE HAVE VIDEO OVERLAY AS YOU CAN SEE. YOU EDIT ALL THE DATA IN THERE ON TOP OF IT AND SEEING THE ACTUAL SEQUENCE OF EVENTS HAPPENING SO SOME OF THE THINGS MENTIONED WHEN YOU DO SOME OF THE SAFETY TESTING YOU CAN SEE VENTING AND SO FORTH AND SEE ALL THE ACTIVITY GOING ON. THAT ALLOWS US TO GET A DEEPER APPRECIATION OF SOME OF THE EVENTS THAT HAPPEN. I WANT TO GIVE A LITTLE INTRODUCTION OF SOME OF THE RESEARCH. AS FAR AS THE AREA THAT WE -- WE HAVE ACTIVITIES IN SUCH AS THE D.S.R.V. ON EVAN -- ALVIN. SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE KNOWN THIS IS THE IMMERSIBLE THAT RECOVERS DEBRIS FROM THE OCEAN FLOOR AND COVERS AS MUCH AS 80% OR 90% OF THE OCEAN FLOOR AREA SO WE CAN DETECT THOSE, AND THEN ON THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE THE NEW HORIZON. I KNOW SOME OF YOU MAY REMEMBER THE PLUTO, THE PICTURES THAT CAME BACK. WE ARE THE P.I. FOR THAT PARTICULAR PROJECT. IT TOOK ABOUT NINE YEARS TO DO. IT WAS A LONG JOURNEY TO GET THAT TYPE OF PICTURE BACK TO EARTH. WE ARE BASICALLY A THIRD PARTY -- [AUDIO DIFFICULTY] . ON SOME OF THE AREAS WE HAVE A VARIETY OF ACTIVITIES. WE HAVE LOT OF TECHNICAL DIVISIONS AND WE ACTUALLY HAVE A TOTAL OF 10. YESTERDAY WE HAD A LAUNCH OF THE SATELLITE THAT IS -- THAT WENT UP INTO SPACE YESTERDAY. THERE ARE EIGHT SATELLITES AND WE ARE ABLE TO MONITOR ALL OF THE ACTIVITY OUT THERE AS MENTIONED HERE IN THAT AREA FORECASTING AND IT HELPS DEPENDING ON THE COAST AREA. AND VARIETIES OF THINGS WE HAVE, ACTIVITIES, TOO, IN ENGINE DESIGN AND LOOKING AT LARGE ENGINES, 7,000 HORSEPOWER ENGINES, AND WE HAVE DYNOS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AS FAR AS THE ENERGY STORAGE AREA WHEN I FIRST JOINED S.W.R.I. I NOTICED A LOT OF ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATED WITH VARIOUS DIVISIONS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE LOOKED AT IS THE POWER ELECTRONICS, WE HAVE A GROUP THAT WORKS ON POWER CONVERTORS. ENGINE STORAGE, SMART GRID. AND SO FORTH. AND WE HAVE AN AREA THAT MANAGED SAFETY AND WE'RE LEVERAGING THAT QUITE A BIT BECAUSE WE DO A LOT OF TESTING WITH BATTERY AND ESPECIALLY WE HAVE CAPABILITY WITH THIS FACILITY . THIS IS KIND OF AN INTERNAL THING TO A FACILITY WHICH IS VERY HELPFUL BECAUSE WE CARE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, TOO. WHEN WE DO THE TESTING WE ACTUALLY SCRUB SO THE EMISSION IS THE CLEANEST WHEN WE CONDUCT THE TESTS. EXTENSIVE TECHNOLOGY, ONE THING I'LL MENTION IS WE WERE INVOLVED IN A PROJECT -- THE FUNDING ON THAT -- MONITORING THE CHARGE OF THE BATTERY, USING A GAUGE WE DEVELOPED TO SHOW THE ALL GOW RHYTHM AND ONE THE UNIQUE THINGS IN SOME OF THE PRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE CERTAIN CHEMISTRY AS YOU CAN SEE LOOKING AT THE CHARGE OF SOME OF THEM, FLAT LINED, LOOKING AT VOLTAGES AND THE MEASUREMENT. THIS CAN ALLOW YOU THE ADDITIONAL CAPABILITY TO LOOK AT THE CHARGE A LOT MORE ACCURATELY. WE DO A LOT OF DIFFERENT CHEMISTRY FORMATS AND SO FORTH. WE DO A LOT OF BENCHMARKING IN THAT AREA. A LOT OF ACTIVITIES IN THAT AREA, THE SAFETY, HOW WE MANAGE IT, ALLOWING UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MANAGE E.M.S. WE HAVE A GROUP THAT LOOKS AT DEVELOPMENT OF MATERIALS . FLIGHT RATING AND APPLICATION -- YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ON MANAGING THAT, TOO. ON SOME OF THESE FERRIES YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE IT'S ROBUST. SO WE'VE GOT THAT WITHIN OUR RESEARCH. A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT ONE OF THE AREAS ON THE BENCHMARKING WE HAVE THE CONSORTIUM. WE WORK CLOSELY WITH THE INDUSTRY , LOOKING AT GOVERNMENT, TOO, SO A LOT OF THINGS ARE VERY HELPFUL BECAUSE WE GET INTO LOOKING AT AREAS AT THE LEVELS AS YOU CAN SEE MENTIONED EARLIER, WE HAVE VARIETIES AND SHAPES AND SIZES AND CHEMISTRY NEEDS AND THE BATTERY AND HAVING A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF IT GETS YOU A LOT, YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS INSIGHT ON HOW TO USE THEM IN THE PROPER WAY. SOMETIMES GETTING THE CELLS AND MODULES, IT IS NOT EASY SO WE ACTUALLY HAVE THE SYSTEM TO TAKE IT APART AND GO TO THAT LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING. IT'S ALSO KIND OF USEFUL, TOO, BECAUSE THINK ABOUT THAT. EVEN GETTING THE GOOD, REAL INFORMATION OUT THERE, ACCURATE IN THIS TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT. WE CONDUCT VARIOUS RESEARCH, TOO. BECAUSE OF THIS ACTIVITY WE HAVE EXERCISED SOME OF THE CELLS AND EVEN SOME BOOSTERS RELATED TO SAFETY TESTING. AND WE WERE ABLE TO DO SOME THINGS AND SEE WHAT THE RESULT WAS. THE OTHER THING THAT ALSO WE GET INVOLVED IN IS LOOKING AT VARIETIES OF WAYS OF A BETTER PREDICTION OF STATE OF HEALTH, STATE OF CHARGE. SO EVEN ON A PARTICULAR READING WE ARE ABLE TO IDENTIFY A CERTAIN REGION HAS KIND OF UNIQUE BEHAVIOR SUCH AS SOME OF THEM WHEN YOU DO CHARGING THEY ARE PRETTY MUCH -- SOMETHING RELATED TO STABLIZATION OF THE CHEMISTRY AND THE INTERACTIONS. SO THIS DOESN'T MATTER HOW --. IN A CERTAIN AREA ACTUALLY IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU COMBINE THEM TOGETHER. THEY CAN, BEFORE AND AFTER HOW YOU CHARGE, YOU CAN ACTUALLY GET THEM TOGETHER. KIND OF INTERESTING HOW A DIFFERENT REGION CAN DO THAT. SO GETTING BACK TO THE QUALIFICATION TESTING, I KNOW THERE IS SOME TALK ABOUT A LOT OF VESSELS, LUXURY YACHTS, YOU CAN DO PURE SOLAR THEY TALK ABOUT AND EVEN ECONOMISTS, NAVIGATION AND SO FORTH. AS FAR AS FUNDAMENTALS, AS FAR AS LOOKING AT INTEGRATING AS WE GO THROUGH THE FUNDAMENTALS -- THE KNOWN BEHAVIOR AS IT GOES THROUGH MODULES, PATHS, AND THEN THE VESSEL AREA, THE B.M.S. IS THE KEY. AS FAR AS KNOWING SOME OF THE LIMITS AND HOW YOU OPERATE THEM, GETTING A LOT MORE SMARTER AND YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THE THINGS HAPPENING AND PEOPLE YOU HEAR ABOUT. ONE EXAMPLE IS THE TEST OF THE VEHICLE. THEY ACTUALLY -- IF SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN THEY ACTUALLY WARN THE DRIVER TO GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE. THAT IS THE TYPE OF THING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. MANAGEMENT IS IMPORTANT. AGING. PERFORMANCE. YOU KNOW, ALL THE MONITORING. A LOT OF SIGNAL MONITORING AS FAR AS THE KIND OF ENGINE, SOME ALREADY MENTIONED. BECAUSE WE ARE INVOLVED WITH A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES, A LOT OF CHANGES OUT THERE. IN EUROPE THE DTR 100. WE TALK ABOUT THAT. ALL THE VEHICLE STATES STANDARDS. LOTS OF THINGS -- GOOD THING SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY HAVE SOME COMMONALITY. IT IS GOOD TO SEE ALL THAT. THEN THE OTHER THING, THERE ARE SOME UNIQUENESSES, WHICH IS GOOD. IN ONE IS THE CO-11. IT'S KIND OF NEAT IN THAT AREA. WE HAVE SOME STANDARDS. CHINA ALSO GETTING INTO THE ACT WITH THE BATTERIES AND SO FORTH. YESTERDAY WE TALKED ABOUT THE STANDARDS AND IT IS ALSO VERY USEFUL AND THE APPLICATION MAY BE SOMEWHAT UNIQUE. I DON'T NEED TO GO THROO YOU THAT. I DON'T NEED TO GO THROUGH THAT. JUST A VARIETY OF CHEMISTRY AND SO FORTH. THE APPLICATIONS, MAKE SURE THAT IS WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. SO A LOT OF BALANCING. BALANCING WHAT'S NECESSARY FOR THE APPLICATION. SO IT HAS TO GO ALL THE WAY FROM DOWN BELOW, UP TO THE TOP WHERE THE SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS ARE. AND THEN FROM THE TOP DOWN. IT IS IMPORTANT TO GO BACK AND FORTH TO THOSE AREAS . IF I MENTION AUTOMOTIVE TRANSPORTATION, THE STORAGE, TELECOMMUNICATION, THE VARIETIES OF THINGS WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT THOSE AREAS. AND THEY HAVE, YOU PLEASE, MODULE AND SOME OF THEM ARE SOMEWHAT UNIQUE AND INTERESTING. MECHANICAL SAFETY, A VARIETY OF EVALUATING THE DEVIL. WE CAN DO PENETRATION TESTING. ASSIMILATING, CRUSH, JUST KIND OF IMAGINE THE SIZE AND CAPABILITYY OF IT SO WE DO THE TESTING. VIBRATION, SO FORTH. ELECTRICAL SAFETY AND PRETTY MUCH THE INDUSTRY. SO OVER THE CHARGE. YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THE PICTURES SHOWN IN HERE. SO THIS IS JUST A MODULE THAT CAN GENERATE THAT. THE OTHER THING I'LL ALSO MENTION, TOO, IS IT IS KIND OF NICE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THE LIMITS ARE. SO YOU KNOW YOUR FACTORS, SAFETY FACTORS, YOUR WINDOW AND SO FORTH. SO YOU CAN OPTIMIZE THE SITUATION AND EVEN GET MORE CAPACITY. NOT KNOWING YOUR SAFETY FACTORS. THERE ARE TIMES OF AREAS OF CONCERN SO YOU CAN BUILD IN THE SAFETY TYPE OF EVALUATIONS. SO WE WORK A LOT OF CUSTOMS. IN OUR PLACE WE WORK CLOSELY WITH CLIENTS DOING SOME CUSTOM TESTING BECAUSE WE REALLY WANT TO MAKE SURE THERE IS GOOD INTEGRITY. SO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THE PRODUCTION. WE HAVE CAPABILITY TO DO THE TESTING BUT IT'S NOT A VERY POPULAR DEMAND. LASTLY, WE DO HAVE THE CAPABILITY, SOME OF THEM ARE NONINSTRUCTIVE. SOME ARE INSTRUCTIVE. EVEN THE BEHAVIORS -- THE RESEARCH IS CONTINUING TO GROW IN THIS AREA. THANK YOU. [APPLAUSE] 

>> THANK YOU, CHAUK. SO I THINK WE HAVE TIME FOR Q & A NOW. SO ANY QUESTIONS? ALSO, BEN PRESENTED EARLIER SHORE POWER CONNECTION. 

>> ACTUALLY A QUESTION FOR BEN. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE COUPLING BETWEEN THE UTILITY AND THE PORT. HAVE YOU OR KNOW OF OTHERS THAT EXPLORED THE PORT'S USAGE OF MICRO GRID TO SUPPORT THE VARYING LOADS FROM UTILITIES? I'VE HEARD A LITTLE BIT FROM THE PORT OF SEATTLE THEY'RE SUPPORTING THAT WITH THE NEW TERMINAL UPGRADE. 

>> HAVE I EXPLORED MICRO GRID? WE ARE DOING IT RIGHT NOW, AS A MATTER OF FACT. WE ARE LOOKING INTO IT. WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING INTO IT FOR THE PAST MAYBE THREE YEARS SERIOUSLY. BUT WE HAVEN'T COME UP WITH ANY SOLUTION YET OR APPLICATION. IT'S EXPENSIVE. AND OUR SYSTEM ISN'T REALLY THAT EASY TO MANIPULATE SO THAT YOU GET QUICK RESULTS. BUT, YES. WE ARE VERY INTERESTED. WE ARE LOOKING INTO IT. IF ANYONE HAS ANY IDEA, WE'LL BE VERY OPEN FOR IT, YES. 

>> THIS IS A QUESTION FOR YOU. JUST WANT TO ASK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE FOR THE HYBRID VESSEL FOR THE ALCATRAZ CRUISE. WHAT IS THE PROCESS OF GETTING APPROVAL FROM THE COAST GUARD AND --? 

>> COAST GUARD IS VERY THOROUGH AND IT TOOK A BIT LONGER THAN WE ANTICIPATED. I THINK YOU KNOW THAT THE REGULATIONS, THERE IS ABOUT A 30-DAY WINDOW FOR INFORMATION TO BE SUBMITTED AND THEN APPROVED. AND EVERY TIME YOU ENTER THAT WINDOW, WE'D SUBMIT INFORMATION TO THE COAST GUARD AND THEY WOULD TAKE EVERY BIT OF THE 30 DAYS TO GET BACK TO US AND COME BACK WITH QUESTIONS. THEN THE WINDOW WOULD OPEN UP AGAIN. SO IT WAS QUITE A PROCESS. BACK OF THAT TIME AND, YOU KNOW, THE FIVE, SIX YEARS AGO, WE WERE DOING SHIPS NOT ONLY FOR SAN FRANCISCO AREA BUT ALSO FOR THE NEW YORK AREA. AND THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT COMMANDANTS INVOLVED AND THEY DIDN'T ALWAYS COMMUNICATE A HUNDRED PERCENT WITH EACH OTHER. SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT WAS SUBMITTED FOR CALIFORNIA DIDN'T GET THROUGH. THEY WORKED WITH US VERY WELL. IF WE HAD ANY QUESTIONS OR ISSUES WITH THE COAST GUARD IT WAS A VERY OPEN COMMUNICATION BACK AND FORTH. IT'S JUST A TIME CONSUMING PROCESS THAT YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH. OF COURSE THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE VESSEL. SO THEY'RE NOT -- THEY'RE NOT -- THIS WAS REALLY THE EARLY DAYS OF HYBRID SHIPS IN THE UNITED STATES SO THEY HAD MORE QUESTIONS THAN THEY HAD ANSWERS FOR US. BUT IT ACTUALLY HELPED US ON THE SUBSEQUENT VESSELS TWO OF THEM THROUGH QUICKER AND TO UNDERSTAND THE DESIGN INFORMATION AND THE GOALS THAT THE COAST GUARD HAD. 

>> THIS QUESTION IS FOR LARRY AND CHAUK. IT KIND OF CAME TO MIND WHEN I SAW SOME OF THE TESTING CAPABILITIES YOU HAVE. DO BATTERIES FOR VESSELS HAVE TO BE PACKAGED ANY DIFFERENTLY FROM THE MARINE SALT AIR ENVIRONMENT THAN A BATTERY FOR A LAND APPLICATION OR IS THAT ALL SORT OF TAKEN CARE OF IN THE BATTERY ROOM AND THE ENVIRONMENT IS OKAY? AND THE OTHER PIECE OF THAT QUESTION IS, DO THOSE BATTERIES FOR MARINE GET EXCLUSIVELY TESTED FOR SALT AIR CONDITIONS AND, YOU KNOW, MARINE ENVIRONMENT? 

>> DEFINITELY. IN AUTOMOTIVE WE DO SEE SOME OF THOSE TESTING ON SALT SPRAY AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THE SALT MIST. I BELIEVE, ALSO, I THINK THAT IN SOME OF THE STANDARDS ACTUALLY HAS THOSE TYPE OF THE MARINE, TOO, I THINK IT DEPENDS WHERE THEY'RE LOCATED. EXTERNALLY THEY DO HAVE THAT TYPE OF REQUIREMENT SO I JUST WANT TO MENTION I THINK THE -- ON THE -- SOME OF THE -- [AUDIO DIFFICULTY] I SEE SOME OF THE STANDARDS -- 

>> A LOT OF TIMES THE BATTERY MODULES ARE RATED BASICALLY SO THEY'RE KIND OF ISOLATED FROM AMBIENT SO IN ORDER TO PASS THE TESTING THAT IS KIND OF THE DESIGN PHILOSOPHY. REALISTICALLY THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN STATIONARY SYSTEMS -- THERE ARE RACKS AND THEY'RE STACKED UP AND THE MODULES, REMOVE THE HEAT, THE CELLS ARE JUST SIMILAR. THERE ARE TESTS, THE TYPE OF APPROVAL IS EXACTLY MARITIME SPECIFIC AND CARRIES OVER A LOT OF TESTS THAT YOU WOULD DO. 

>> SO IS THERE EXTRA PACKAGING IN THE BATTERY PACKS OR IS IT JUST THE BATTERIES PASS THE TEST AND --. 

>> HONESTLY, THE PROP GATIEN TESTING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IS NOW PROBABLY THE DEFINING -- PROBABLY PUT MORE OF A LINE BETWEEN THOSE TWO SYSTEMS THAN THERE WAS BEFORE JUST BECAUSE OF THE PROPAGATION COMPARTMENT SO REALISTICALLY THERE IS A LOT MORE SAFETY BUILT IN AND I THINK YOU TEND TO HAVE MORE ISOLATION AND THIS IS NOT SPECIFICALLY REQUIRED BY STANDARDS BUT YOU TEND TO HAVE MORE ISOLATION FROM THE SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENT IN A MARITIME SYSTEM. BUT THE SAFETY -- THE LEVEL OF SAFETY ON A MARITIME SYSTEM IS A NOTCH ABOVE. 

>> A GOOD QUESTION. 

>> YES. 

>> PROBABLY PROVIDES MORE DETAILS ON THAT. SOMETHING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT TESTING, YES, IT IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A SPECIAL ENVIRONMENT TEST LIKE HUMIDITY, VIBRATION, AND ALL OF THESE THINGS. SO THAT IS SPECIAL FOR THE MARINE ENVIRONMENT. SO IT MIGHT BE THAT YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR BATTERY MODULE. BUT WHAT WE SEE IS THIS MAY BE THE MAIN BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM BOX. SO THE CHALLENGING PART. 

>> CAN YOU SHARE WHO BORE MOST OF THE COST OF THE SHORE POWER UPGRADES, WHETHER IT WAS THE FACILITY, THE PORT, OR THE SHIP OWNERS? 

>> ON AN AVERAGE YOU CAN ASSUME THAT EACH OUTLET WITH THE TWO SNOCKETS IT IS INSTALLED IN PLACE WITH THE PROTECTION AND ALL THAT, YOU WOULD ASSUME ABOUT A MILLION DOLLARS EACH OUTLET. SO IF YOU'RE PUTTING LIKE SIX BOXES THAT IS ABOUT 6 MILLION. PER TERM NINL IT COSTS US 30 TO -- PER TERMINAL IT COSTS US 30 TO 40 MILLION DOLLAR EACH TERMINAL. 

>> CAN YOU SAY WHO CARRIES THE BRUNT OF THAT COST? OR IS IT BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT STAKE HOLDERS? THE UTILITY --. 

>> WELL, IN OUR PORT BUSINESS AT LEAST ONE WAY OR THE OTHER THE END USER, THE TENANT PAYS FOR IT. HOWEVER, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, EARLY STARTERS HAD SOME GRANTS FROM THE STATE. THE PORT WAS WILLING TO PAY SOME TO IMPLEMENT IT. BUT ONCE IT GETS GOING IT BECOMES A HUNDRED PERCENT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. THERE IS AN OPERATION GOING ON THERE THAT WE THOUGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR FIRST INSTALLATION AND WE WOULD HAVE PAID A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE COST TO GET THEM STARTED AND SHOW IT CAN BE DONE. AND THEY WERE VERY RELUCTANT TO DO IT. HOWEVER, AFTER THE INSTALLATIONS NOW THEY COME AND SAY WOULD THE PORT BE INTERESTED TO DO IT? OF COURSE WE HAVE NO INCENTIVE RIGHT NOW. AND THEY NEED ABOUT $10 MILLION TO DO IT THEMSELVES AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO DO IT. AND, FRANKLY, MY PERSONAL OBSERVATION IS THAT THEY WANT TO DO IT BUT THEY'RE NOT REALLY SURE EITHER. BUT IF THEY WERE REALLY SURE, THEY'LL FIND THE MONEY. THEY'LL FIND THE HELP. BUT THEY'RE NOT REALLY SURE. SO THERE IS -- MORE AND MORE I'M SEEING FEDERAL AND STATE HELP COMING YOUR WAY. THEY MAY NOT FINANCE A HUNDRED PERCENT BUT IF THEY FINANCE 70% THAT'S STILL PRETTY GOOD. 

>> PROBABLY FOR LAWRENCE. DO ANY OF YOUR VESSELS OPERATE IN D.T.? IF SO I THINK THERE IS A REQUIREMENT WHEN OPERATED IN D.P. 3 TO OPERATE ON A FLIP BUS AND IF YOU FOLLOW THAT DO YOU THEN GET RID OF ALL THE EFFICIENCY BENEFITS YOU'VE HAD BY HAVING THAT COMBINED BUS WITH POWER MANAGEMENT SHARING LOADS AND ALL THAT? 

>> I REALLY CAN'T ANSWER THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT REQUIREMENT COME UP FOR THE VESSELS WE'VE DONE SO FAR. 

>> ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. 

>> OKAY. THE ISSUE HAS BEEN RAISED, THERE'S JUST BEEN AN ADVISORY PUBLISHED ON CLOSED BUS DP 2 DP 3 OPERATION, I DID A PAPER ON IT. VERY HOT TOPIC RIGHT NOW. THE VESSEL OPERATORS AND DRILL SHAFT OPERATORS ALL WANT TO OPERATE THE COMMON BUS, YOU KNOW, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THAT INTRODUCES A SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE IF YOU HAVE A FAULT ON THE MAIN BUS IF THE BUS DOESN'T OPEN QUICKLY ENOUGH. YOU'LL LOSE THE WHOLE PLAN. SO WHAT THE COAST GUARD HAS MANDATED FOR DRILL SHIPS OPERATING, YOU KNOW, IN THE U.S. CONTINENTAL SHELF WATERS IN THE GULF IS THAT YOU HAVE TO GO -- YOU EITHER HAVE TO OPERATE SPLIT BUS OR IF YOU'RE GOING TO OPERATE CLOSED BUS YOU HAVE TO DO A TEST TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THE SYSTEM AND SURVIVAL OF A MAIN BUS FAULT AND THAT THE BUS TIE OR BUS TIES IF IT'S A RAIN BUS WILL ISOLATE THAT FAULT. SO THAT'S, RIGHT NOW, WHAT IS THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT THEY'RE REQUIRING IF YOU'RE -- WANT TO OPERATE THE CLOSED BUS WITH DP 2, DP 3, YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, EITHER DO A LIVE SHORE CIRCUIT TEST OR OTHER ALTERNATIVES. SYSTEM SIMULATION. IT IS A HOT TOPIC RIGHT NOW. GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP. 

>> I KNOW, TOO, WE HAVE APPROVED SOME VESSELS THAT CAN USE THE ENERGY STORAGE SYSTEM OR THERE IS AT LEAST PROVISION TO USE THAT TO PROVIDE THE SELECTION AND SPLIT BETWEEN THE BUSES SO PROVIDING EFFECTIVELY A CLOSED BUS OPERATION BUT THEN WHERE THEY'RE ACTUALLY PROTECTED. 

>> I GUESS A GENERAL QUESTION TO THE PANEL AND THE CERTIFICATION BOARD. IN THE STANDARDS, HOW IS THE FAULT ISOLATION SECTION AND RECOVERY OF THAT FAULT? HOW DOES THE REGULATION DEFINE THAT? ON THE MILITARY SIDE WE HAVE, ON THE VEHICLE SIDE WE HAVE THE SUBJECT DESCRIPTION THAT SAYS 99% PROTECTION, 99% ISOLATION. FAIRLY COMMON. AERO SAYS SAYS 99 AND 99. IS THERE A SPECIFIC STANDARD THAT DEFINES HOW THAT WILL HAPPEN ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DO CROSS OF THE D.C. BUSES? WHAT IS THE REGULATION RIGHT NOW FOR THAT SPECIFIC ELEMENT? 

>> MOST OF THEM ARE A.C. BUSES SO AS FAR AS THE, FOR D.P. OPERATIONS AND THINGS. I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE, OR IF THERE ARE SPECIFIC --? SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS FOR D.C. BUS PROTECTION? I KNOW THERE ARE BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. 

>> INC. WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS, CAN PROBABILITY BE CONSIDERED? THE PROBABILITY OF THE EVENT. THERE ARE TWO TYPES FOR APPROVAL. QUANTITY TATE AVEN QUALITATIVE. IF THE COAST GUARD DOESN'T INTRODUCE PROBABILITY. THEY JUST SAY IF THIS FAILS THE SYSTEM THOOSE SURVIVE IT. THEY DON'T INTRODUCE THE LIKELIHOOD. THAT IS THE DIFFERENT TYPE SO THE WAY MOST SHIPS, YOU HAVE TWO SHIP BOARDS AND OPERATE SPLIT LAND SO THIS GOES DOWN AND NOTHING HAPPENS OR IF YOU DO OPERATE CLOSED BUS YOU HAVE TO, THE TIEBREAKER HAS TO OPERATE IN TIME SO YOU HAVE TO ADD DIFFERENTIAL PROTECTION, HIGH SPEED, YOU KNOW, ART FAULT PROTECTION. AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE IT. THE LIKELIHOOD DOESN'T GET YOU OUT OF HAVING TO MEET THAT REQUIREMENT. THAT IS CALLED A -- I GET THEM MIXED UP. QUANTITATIVE VERSUS QUALITATIVE. OKAY. 

>> I HAVE A QUESTION JUST IN GENERAL. WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT BATTERIES AND COST AND MAYBE ENERGY IS GETTING BETTER BUT I THINK SOMETHING THAT IS OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD IS THE SIZE AND THE COST OF POWER ELECTRONICS. HAVE YOU SEEN OR CAN YOU SAY SOMETHING EFFECTIVE JUST KIND OF IMPROVEMENT IN POWER DENSITY OR IN KIND OF DOLLARS PER KILOWATT OR ANYTHING ALONG THOSE LINES? 

>> THE POWER CONVERTOR MANUFACTURERS ARE AWARE OF THIS. ACTUALLY GREAT ADVANCE IS ALL THE SOLAR INSTALLATION GOING IN. A LOT OF SOLAR BEING USED AND CONVERTORS BEING USED FOR THAT. THERE IS MORE MANUFACTURING OF THE HIGHER POWER POWER CONVERTORS. WE USE A LOT OF 800 AND 1200 AM PLEASE DEVICES SO THE VOLUME IS STARTING TO COME DOWN. TECHNOLOGY IS ALSO ADVANCING. SILICON CARBIDE. THOSE ARE MORE EXPENSIVE BUT CAN RUN AT HIGHER TEMPERATURES. AND THEY HAVE A LONGER LIFE SPAN BECAUSE OF THAT. WITH SOME OF THE PROJECTS WE'RE WORKING ON THEIR GOAL IS NINE KILOWATTS PER LITER FOR DESIGN SIZE OF POWER ELECTRONICS. THAT OF COURSE MAKES THE POWER ELECTRONICS SMALLER. THE HEAT IS THE PROBLEM AGAIN. YOU HAVE TO HAVE MORE EFFICIENT THERMAL DYNAMICS BUILT INTO YOUR SYSTEM TO TAKE AWAY THE HEAT, THE COOLING OR VERY GOOD CON DUCKS SHUN. I DO SEE THE PRICES COMING DOWN, THE SYSTEMS THAT WE SOLD, YOU KNOW, IN 2005 AND 2004 , MAYBE TWO-THIRDS OF THE PRICE FOR THE POWER ELECTRONICS WE HAVE TO PAY NOW. 

>> THE BATTERY QUALIFICATION TESTING. WHAT ARE THE STANDARDS YOU HAVE? 

>> I THINK IT VARIES AND DEPENDS ON -- AS FAR AS LOOKING AT WHERE THINGS -- IT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU AS FAR AS APPLICATION. I NOTICE AUTOMOTIVE IS DIFFERENT. THERE'S ACTUALLY THE SYSTEM LOOKING AT VARIETIES OF THINGS , THE SAMPLE SIZE WAS SIGNIFICANT. I THINK 30 SAMPLES AND SO FORTH. BUT IN OTHER ACTIVITIES, I KNOW, SOME OF THE -- I THINK THEY TALK ABOUT 15 SAMPLES. LOOKING AT VARIETIES OF AREAS AND TESTING AND EVEN ON FLIGHT READINESS THEY WANT THE ITEMS 147B% TESTED SO TO HANDLE THIS SIZE BATTERIES VERY GENTLY TO WHERE THERE IS GOING TO BE USAGE. AS FAR AS IN THOSE AREAS I THINK IT WILL GIVE YOU GOOD CONFIDENCE. YOU'LL HAVE A GOOD QUALITY AND STINTSY IN PERFORMANCE COMING THROUGH. IT IS IMPORTANT AS A GROUP TO EMPHASIZE WHAT TO WONDER, GET YOUR READINESS AND SO FORTH. THAT IS THE MAIN GOAL AS FAR AS THOSE AREAS. OTHER QUESTIONS? 

>> WELL, THANKS TO THE PANEL AND THE MODERATOR. [APPLAUSE] 

>> I'D JUST LIKE TO MENTION ONE OTHER THING. COMING UP IN MID JANUARY THERE IS A HYBRID MARINE CONFERENCE GOING ON IN TAMPA, FLORIDA. I'VE TALKED TO SEVERAL OF YOU AND YOU WILL BE THERE. WE'LL BE THERE. IF ANYONE HAS ANY INTEREST, OUR FACILITY IS A TWO-HOUR DRIVE DOWN THE GULF FROM TAMPA. BE WILLING TO BRING ANYBODY TO OUR FACILITY, TALK WITH OUR ENGINEERS AND DO WHAT KIND OF TESTING WE DO. IT'S KIND OF NEAT. OUR SISTER COMPANY IS RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET FROM US. OVER THERE WE HAVE WHAT WE CALL OUR PLAYGROUND WITH A LOT OF BIG, HEAVY MINING MACHINERY WE OPERATE THAT YOU CAN SEE DEMONSTRATED AND KIND OF SEE WHAT OUR TECHNOLOGY IS. 

>> THANK YOU. NOW THAT I SEE YOU ARE BACK, THANK YOU. I'LL GO AHEAD WITH YOUR PROGRAM. 

>> ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT, THIS IS A VARIED PANEL AND WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT REGULATIONS AFTER THE COAST GUARD IN A LITTLE BIT. I WANT TO FOCUS ON THE NEXT ACTIVITY LOOKING AT THE PORT AND SHORE SIDE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT BEN TALKED ABOUT. I KNOW FROM TALKING WITH OPERATORS THIS IS OFTEN AN AREA OF CONCERN AND MYSTERY. I THINK SOME OF YOU PROBABLY GOT VERY TERRIFIED BY THE $30 MILLION NUMBER. SO WHAT I'D LAKE TO DO IS AT YOUR TABLES -- SO WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS AT YOUR TABLES CAN YOU PLEASE DISCUSS AMONG YOURSELVES THE CHALLENGES AND THE BENEFITS, SO A COUPLE CHALLENGES AND BENEFITS FOR BOTH THE PEOPLE THAT MANAGE THE PORTS AND SO THE PORTS CAN BE A LARGE PORT LIKE LONG BEACH CAN ALSO BE THE END OF THE ROAD ON A RIVER, YOU KNOW, SOMEWHERE IN MISSOURI OR ALABAMA. AND ALSO THE OTHER STAKEHOLDERS INVOLVED WHICH WOULD MAINLY BE THE POWER UTILITY. TALK AMONG YOURSELVES AND COME UP WITH SOME CHALLENGES AND BENEFITS FOR THE PORTS AND THE UTILITIES AND THEN WE'LL SHARE IT AS A GROUP AND HAVE A LITTLE FOLLOWUP TO THAT. 

>> ALL RIGHT. IF YOU GUYS ARE READY TO SHARE WE'LL BE COMING AROUND. YOU CAN HAVE A SPOKES PERSON FROM YOUR TABLE. LET US KNOW WHAT THE, BOTH THE CHALLENGES AND BENEFITS FOR THE SHORE SIDE PARTICIPANTS ARE. START IN THE BACK. WE'LL KICK IT OFF. A LOT OF WHAT WE DISCUSSED WAS RECAPPING WHAT WAS COVERED VERY WELL IN THE PRESENTATION, CHALLENGES, COSTS, STANDARDIZATION. WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT PEOPLE. AS SOMEONE WHO HAS PERSONALLY BEEN THAT GUY ON THE BACK OF THE SHIP MEETING UP WITH THE LONG SHOREMEN AND KNOWS HOW SOME OF THE INTERACTIONS CAN GO, I MEAN, STUFF YOU WOULD JUST NEVER IMAGINE LIKE SOMEONE TAKING A SHORE CABLE AND THINKING IT IS A MOORING LINE AND TRYING TO TIE IT AROUND THE CLETE. EVERYONE IN THE ROOM MIGHT BE SAY THAT IS RIDICULOUS. A LINE IS A LINE AND A CABLE IS A CABLE. I KNOW THESE PEOPLE. TRUST ME. THEY WILL DO THIS. SO THE PEOPLE AND THE BENEFITS OF COURSE THE LOCAL NOISE AND POLLUTION THAT WAS COVERED. 

>> THE CHALLENGES WE CAME UP WITH WAS GETTING THE INFRASTRUCTURE PUT INTO OUR LOCATION AND THE BENEFITS EMISSIONS. THE CHALLENGES THAT WE WERE DISCUSSING WAS SMOOTHING OUT THE PEAK DEMAND AND OF COURSE WE TALKED ABOUT THE MICRO GRIDS FOR THAT. THE BENEFITS, MORE CUSTOMERS FOR THE POWER COMPANY AND FOR THE PORTS. WE ALSO JUST STARTED TALKING ABOUT A BENEFIT IN THAT MANY OF THE PORTS ARE LOCATED IN ENVIRONMENTALLY AT RISK AREAS TO BEGIN WITH AND SO THAT COULD BE A BENEFIT, TOO, IS TO ADDRESS ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS AND HIGH RISK ENVIRONMENTAL AREAS. 

>> SOME OF THE CHALLENGES OR GROUNDING ARRANGEMENTS ON THE SHORE POWER CONNECTION MOST VESSELS ARE UNGROUNDED, REGULATORY, ALSO A LOT OF THE SHIPS, EXISTING VESSELS THE SHORE POWER CONNECTION IS ONLY SIZED FOR DRY DOCK. SO HAVING TO UPSIZE TO SHORE CONNECTION TO BE ABLE TO CARRY THE IMPORT LOAD AND MAYBE A BATTERY BANK CAN BE PART OF THE SOLUTION THERE. YOU KNOW, AND THEN THE UTILITY COST WAS ANOTHER CHALLENGE. IF THAT BENEFITS CLEAN ENERGY, YOU KNOW, USING THE BATTERIES TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, AND ALSO POSSIBLY FOR SMALLER VESSELS INSTEAD OF GOING ON SHORE POWER MAYBE YOU CAN JUST GO ON BATTERY POWER FOR A DAY IF YOU'RE IN AND OUT. AS AN ALTERNATIVE I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S BEEN CONSIDERED. ANYBODY ELSE? 

>> A QUICK COMMENT ON THE BATTERY VERSUS SHORE POWER. I WAS AT A MEETING A COUPLE YEARS AGO AND THEY WERE COMPLAINING TO ME HOW MUCH THEY HATE CRUISE SHIPS. AND THEY SAID CAN YOU PLEASE PUT A BATTERY ON THE CRUISE SHIP BECAUSE WE HAVE TO PUT THIS BIG SUB STATION IN FOR 20 MEGAWATTS THEY'RE GOING TO USE ONE DAY A MONTH AT LEAST IN NEW YORK AS OPPOSE TODAY PLACES LIKE MIAMI WHERE THEY USE IT DALEY AND GET GOOD UTILIZATION OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE. SO THERE IS SOME INTEREST ON THE UTILITY SIDE TO SEE, NOT HAVE TO MAKE THAT INVESTMENT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE PORT TO ELIMINATE THAT SORT OF UNDER UTILIZED ASSET. 

>> NEXT TABLE? 

>> THE CHALLENGES, ONE THAT CAME UP, WHICH IS TRUE, BEING ABLE TO ACCOMMODATE ALL SHIPS FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD WITH DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS, ACCOMMODATING THEM AS CHALLENGE. ANOTHER ONE THAT CAME UP AT THE TABLE, NOT MINE REALLY, LIABILITIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES, IDENTIFICATION. WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG IT'S A TRUE CHALLENGE BECAUSE, FORTUNATELY, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN OFTEN, BUT WHEN IT DOES, IT DOES CREATE A LOT OF HARDSHIP WITH EVERYBODY INVOLVED. THAT IS A REAL CHALLENGE. THE BENEFITS IS CUTTING DOWN POLLUTION IS THE MAIN DRIVER AND THAT'S WHY THESE THINGS HAPPEN. THE OTHER BENEFIT THAT COMES UP REALLY IS IT CREATES A LOT OF JOBS. THERE IS SOME BENEFIT TO THAT. IT CREATES AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SCIENCE TO ADVANCE, A LOT OF RESEARCH TO BE DONE. SO WE SHOULD LOOK AT IT AS A BENEFIT. NOT JUST AS A LIABILITY THAT WE'RE CUTTING DOWN POLLUTION. THAT IS A BENEFIT, TOO. 

>> WE ARE KIND OF SLOW AT THIS TABLE BUT THERE IS A BIG ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM WE FEEL AND IT'S THE UTILITIES. THEY DO NOT COOPERATE, PERIOD. THE UTILITIES ARE THE PROBLEM AND I THINK THE UTILITIES EITHER HAVE TO CHANGE OR BE ELIMINATED AND THE SOLUTION IS THE BENEFIT IS WITH THE UTILITIES EITHER ELIMINATED OR GETTING ABOARD THE PROGRAM THE SYSTEMS WILL WORK. IT IS THE PROBLEM WITH UTILITIES BUT NOBODY WANTS TO TAKE THEM ON. SHUZEKE IS VOLUNTEERING TO START THE MOVEMENT. 

>> I AGREE. UTILITIES ARE A PROBLEM. BUT REALLY NOT AS BIG A PROBLEM AS WE PERCEIVE. IF YOU REALLY -- IF HIGHER UP PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE, AND THAT'S REALLY THE CHALLENGE IS TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT. ONCE THEY UNDERSTAND IT, IT'S REALLY NOT THAT BAD. I WORK NOW IN EDISON TERRITORY, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON TERRITORY. MUCH, MUCH EASIER THAN DWP. I LEFT DWP WHEN I WAS WORKING THERE THEY ARE EXTREMELY NOTORIOUS ABOUT BEING DIFFICULT. I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. YOU GO TO A PROJECT THAT LASTS MAYBE FIVE YEARS OR SO. AND DURING THOSE FIVE YEARS, PERSONNEL WITHIN D.W.P. EITHER GET PROMOTED, CHANGED, RETIRED, WHATEVER. IT HAPPENS. SO THE FIRST GUY LOOKS AT THE INSTALLATION, APPROVES IT, HE GETS PROMOTED. THEN THE SECOND GUY COMES IN AND HE SAYS, I DIDN'T SEE IT. IT'S COVERED. OPEN IT UP. I NEED TO SEE HOW YOU INSTALLED IT. IT'S UNREASONABLE. RIGHT? BUT THAT'S THE DIFFICULTY THEY CREATED. NOW, ONCE MANAGEMENT UNDERSTANDS THERE IS A WAY YOU CAN DEAL WITH THEM. AND MY DEALING WITH D.W.P. WAS ALWAYS THE SAME. WHEN I WRITE THE MEMO AND IF I'M WRITING IT TO YOU AND I FIND OUT THAT THE OTHER GUY IS YOUR SUPERVISOR, THEN I WRITE IT TO YOU WITH A SECRETARY, THEN IF I FIND OUT THE SECRETARY FILES IT, I WRITE IT TO YOU AND C.C. HIM AND THE SECRETARY. NOW, IN THAT PROCESS SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT'S TOO MUCH. YOU DON'T REALLY NEED C.C. THE SECRETARY. THERE IS A BENEFIT FOR THAT. SOMETIMES TO GUYS THAT I C.C., OR EVEN THE GUY THAT I WRITE, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IT? AND ONE GUY LOOKED ME RIGHT IN MY EYES AND SAYS, THIS IS WHAT I GET FROM YOU. YOU KNOW WHAT WE DO? I TEAR IT UP. THROW IT IN THE GARBAGE CAN. LITERALLY. TEAR IT UP AND THROW IT IN THE GARBAGE CAN. YOU RUN INTO GUYS LIKE THAT. NOT EVERYBODY IS LIKE THAT. BUT YOU RUN INTO THEM. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. HOWEVER THIS IS WHERE I SAY THE APPLICATION COMES -- THE EDUCATION COMES IN WITH MANAGEMENT AND ALL THAT. TO CUT THE STORY SHORT IT HAS COME DOWN TO THIS POINT THAT YOU FOLLOW THIS PROCEDURE AND THEN YOU CALL THE OFFICE, THE UTILITY COMPANY. YOU CAN FIND THEM THERE. AND THEN YOU ASK FOR A SUPERVISOR. HE IS NOT THERE. YOU ASK FOR HIS SUPERVISOR. NOT THERE. IT'S GONE ALL THE WAY TO THE COMMISSION. THE COMMISSIONER'S SECRETARY SAYS YOU WANT TO TALK TO THE COMMISSIONER ABOUT YOUR SERVICE? YES. I CAN'T FIND ANYONE IN THE DEPARTMENT. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. SO FIVE MINUTES LATER YOU GET A CALL FROM SOMEBODY. NOW, YOU GET A REPUTATION THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO MESS AROUND WITH YOU AND WHEN YOU GET TO THAT LEVEL, YOU START GETTING MUCH COOPERATION. IN ONE INSTANCE, WE WERE WORKING ON A PROJECT GETTING READY FOR CONSTRUCTION AND WEWAY ITED THE CONTACT. STARTED WORK AND WE HAD BEEN WORKING LIKE THIS AS I EXPLAINED WITH D.W.P., AND THE CONTRACTOR IS STARTING TO DEMOLISH EVERYTHING BUT THE UTILITY POLE LINES ARE IN PLACE. AND THEY'RE NOT MOVING. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE RELOCATED BY THE UTILITY COMPANY. SO AT THAT POINT, I CALLED ONE OF THESE BIG GUYS AND I EXPLAINED TO HIM. AND HE KNOWS ME BY NOW. AND HE SAID, WOULD YOU MIND TELLING THE SAME STORY HERE TO MY STAFF? I SAID, I'LL TELL THE STORY TO ANYONE YOU WANT TO. I DON'T CARE. SO THE NEXT DAY, I WENT TO THE MEETING HE HAD ARRANGED AND HE HAD A STAFF OF MAYBE LIKE 35 PEOPLE, THE UNDERGROUND, OVERHEAD SHALL THE SERVERS, THE COORDINATOR, EVERYBODY. HE KNEW THE STORY. I TOOK MY FOLDER WITH ME AND I WENT THERE. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE MEETING WAS BUT WHEN I WALKED IN I WAS PUZZLED THAT EVERYBODY WAS THERE. HE SAID BEN HAS A STORY TO TELL YOU. I TOLD THEM THE STORY. WE'VE BEEN WORKING THREE YEARS AND I'VE BEEN WRITING ALL THESE MEMOS TO YOU, TO HIM, CC'D HIM, HERE, THERE, AND HERE ARE THE FILES. I SAID TODAY WE ARE DOING CONSTRUCTION AND NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT THE JOB. HOW CAN THAT HAPPEN? AND I STOPPED. THEN THE BIG CHIEF ASKED THE STAFF. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OF BEN? NO QUESTIONS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. HE EXCUSED ME. NEXT DAY, D.W.P. HAD ALL THE BULLDOZERS THERE AND EVERYTHING TO START MOVING EVERYTHING. THE POINT IS THAT DON'T GIVE UP AND WORK AT IT AND BE PERSISTENT AND EVENTUALLY YOU'LL GET THEIR ATTENTION. YES. THEY ARE DIFFICULT. BUT THAT'S THE WAY LIFE IS. 

>> HE SAID L.A. POWER & LIGHT IS MUCH HARDER THAN EDISON. SPECIFIC GAS AND ELECTRIC AND PUGET SOUND ELECTRIC AND GREAT PLAINS WHERE I LIVE IN KANSAS CITY ARE ALL INVESTOR OWNED UTILITIES AS OPPOSED TO PUBLIC AND THEY HAVE A MONOPOLY THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO GROW THEIR BUSINESS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE MENTIONED WAS ADDING CUSTOMERS TO BOTH PORTS AND TO THE UTILITIES IF YOU GET THE RIGHT PEOPLE AND STRATEGY AT THE TOP LEVEL OF THE INVESTOR OWNED UTILITY THEY WILL GET VERY EXCITED ABOUT YOUR PROJECT. THEN THINGS START TO HAPPEN. THE PROBLEM IS IT'S STARTING AT THE OPERATIONAL LEVEL LIKE BEN SAID IN TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO NORMALLY MOVE POLES. BUT IF YOU GET A PERSON WHO IS AN R&D PERSON OR STRATEGY PERSON UTILITY THEY WILL GET VERY ENGAGED. KANSAS CITY FIRE AND LIGHT DECIDED ON THEIR OWN, THERE IS A RATE INCREASE BUT THEY WENT TO THE PUBLIC UTILITY COMMISSION AND SAID WE'LL INSTALL FREE, EASY CHARGING STATIONS ALL OVER THE CITY LIKE 3,000 OF THEM. AND THEY'RE DOING THAT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PUT THEM OUT THERE SO THAT WE'LL SEE THEM. WANT YOU TO GET AN ELECTRIC CAR. THERE IS ONE AT EVERY GROCERY STORE IN KANSAS CITY NOW AND THAT WAS A STRATEGY MOVE THAT THEY GOT EXCITED ABOUT AND GOT MONEY FROM RATE PAYORS LIKE OURSELVES. WHAT WE NEED FOR THIS IS FOR THE UTILITIES TO GET EXCITED, THE RIGHT GUY AT AN I.O.T. INVESTORS AT A UTILITY TO GET EXCITED. I WANT TO GROW MY BUSINESS BY 5% NEXT YEAR. THERE IS NO WAY TO DO THAT THROUGH ORGANIC GROWTH OF PEOPLE BUILDING NEW HOUSES. NEXT TABLE? 

>> ALL RIGHT. I'LL BE QUICK. ON THE CHALLENGES ONE OF THEM WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT WAS THE COST. IT IS A SIGNIFICANT COST I THINK FOR MOST OF THESE THINGS. WE ALSO HIT ON THE UTILITY SPIKES OR REALLY THE POWER INFRASTRUCTURE. AND THEN MORE COSTS TO CHARGE THE USER. THE VARIABLE RATE TIME OF USE RATING. AND THE BENEFITS YOU ALREADY HIT ON, WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, THE ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFITS, POLLUTION REDUCTION. 

>> ALL RIGHT. SO I WOULD LIKE TO ANNOUNCE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'LL DO A LOT OF THIS THIS AFTERNOON BUT I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THESE CHALLENGES AND BENEFITS AND I'D LIKE TO THINK OF CHALLENGES AS OPPORTUNITIES, BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES, TECHNOLOGY OPPORTUNITIES, SO I WANT YOU TO SPEND ANOTHER COUPLE MINUTES AT YOUR TABLES TALKING ABOUT HOW EITHER A NEW TECHNOLOGY OR A NEW VALUE CHAIN OR ECOSYSTEM PARTNER, BUSINESS, OR NEW REGULATORY APPROACH IS OR INCENTIVES COULD FIX SOME OF THESE CHALLENGES SO THAT YOU COULD ACHIEVE THE BENEFIT. THIS IS THE BRAIN STORMING PART. SO AT YOUR TABLES, COME UP WITH ALTERNATE BUSINESS PRACTICES, VALUATION PLAYERS, TECHNOLOGIES, OR REGULATORY OR POLICY INITIATIVES THAT COULD ADDRESS SOME OF THESE CHALLENGES. YOU GOT THREE OR FOUR MINUTES TO DO THAT. 

>> EVERYBODY, IT IS TIME TO SHARE SUGGESTIONS ON TURNING CHALLENGES INTO OPPORTUNITIES. WE WILL START WITH DR. WARNING -- YOU GOT SOMETHING? NO? DR. 

WARNER: SO, WE REALLY WENT AROUND WITH ONE ITEM HERE, WHICH FALLS IN LINE WITH THE LAST SET OF DISCUSSIONS -- SELF-GENERATION, AND WHAT WE WERE THINKING THAT, WHETHER IT IS WHEN, SOLAR, WAVE POWER, OR EVEN HYDROGEN -- WE HAVE A LOT OF HYDROGEN ENERGY COMING INTO SOME OF THE PORTS WITH SOME OF THE GROWTH OF THE FUEL CELLS -- MAYBE SOME OF THE SOLUTION IS TO MOVE INTO SELF-GENERATION NOW. 

>> PARTNERSHIPS BETWEEN MULTIPLE ENTITIES WOULD PROBABLY BE SOMETHING TO WORK ON. I THINK THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAS BEEN PROVIDED IN TERMS OF SERVICES. WE TALKED ABOUT THE CHALLENGES, AND WHAT HAS THE MOST IMPACT , AND THE ANSWER WAS SERVICE -- BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE THE RIGHT SERVICE TO CUSTOMERS AND THE OPERATORS COMING IN. AND IT IS NOT REALLY ALWAYS THE PORT'S ISSUE. A LOT OF TIMES IT IS SOMETHING OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL. SO, HOW DO YOU FORM THE RIGHT PARTNERSHIPS -- WHETHER IT IS THE INFRASTRUCTURE GUYS, OR THOSE THAT WORK ON THE FREEWAYS, THE UTILITY FOLKS THROUGH PARTNERSHIPS WITH THEM? HOW DOES THAT MAKE -- WORK MAKE SURE THE PROPER SERVICE REQUIRED IS PROVIDED? , OTHER OPERATORS, AND ELEMENTS WITHIN OTHER PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS AND SMALLER ORGANIZATIONS WHETHER IT IS GRID-BASED THAT WORKS BETWEEN THE UTILITY AND THE PORT, OR OTHER OPERATORS ON THE PORT. IT IS REALLY ON THE PARTNERSHIP SIDE. THERE ARE A LOT OF ELEMENTS WE HAVE TO LOOK AT. THERE ARE DEFINITELY ELEMENTS THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT. [INDISCERNIBLE] 

>> THE FORMAL -- HOW DO YOU APPLY VALUE TO THOSE HARD -- PARTNERSHIPS? [INDISCERNIBLE] 

>> YEAH, THAT WE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS. I'M GOING TO TRY TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT. WE STARTED GOING DOWN THE ROUTE OF DISCUSSING IT AS, SORT OF, A CHICKEN AND THE EGG PROBLEM WHEN YOU HAVE COLD IRONING. NOBODY WANTS TO BUILD SHIPS THAT WILL PLUG IN, BECAUSE THE PLUGS ARE NOT THERE. NOBODY WANTS TO BILLY AND THE STRUCTURE OF THE PORTS BECAUSE THE SHIPS ARE NOT THERE. -- BUILD THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE PORTS BECAUSE THE SHIPS ARE NOT THERE. IT IS A PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THEM, UNDERSTANDING THAT IF YOU START DOING THIS, WE WILL DO THIS. MAYBE IT IS CONSORTIUMS, PARTNERSHIPS, FUNDING. I MEAN, MANDATES IS NOT USUALLY THE BEST THING TO DO THESE KINDS OF THINGS. WHAT IS THE MARKET APPROACH, AND I THINK SOME OF THE REAL NORWEGIANS CAN SPEAK TO IT, BUT IN NORWAY, THEY ARE MORE CLOSELY RELATED. THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE WHERE A LOT OF TIMES FAIRIES ARE OPERATED -- OR CHARTERS ARE PUT OUT BY THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION COROLLARY. THERE IS AN INTERCONNECT BETWEEN THE PRIVATE OPERATIONS ON THE PUBLIC SIDE OF IT, SO, MAYBE, THAT, KIND OF -- I DO NOT REALLY KNOW HOW THAT FITS -- IT IS A DIFFERENT WORLD. MAYBE THAT IS A MODEL YOU CAN LOOK TO, AT LEAST. I DO NOT KNOW. THAT IS IT. 

>> [INDISCERNIBLE] HE IS BECOMING A NORWEGIAN. [LAUGHTER] 

>> SO, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE LOOKED AT, WHERE WE THOUGHT MAYBE THERE WOULD BE AN OPPORTUNITY IS IN THE VERY USE OF CHARGING, THE PEAK USE, AND WHAT IS THE TERM FOR IT -- MICRO-GRID -- THAT THE MICRO-GRID WOULD NEED TO BE GREEN, SO THERE IS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO DO THE SOLAR BATTERY-TYPE FORMAT, PARTICULARLY FOR THE SMALLER FAIRIES WHERE THERE IS GOING TO BE PEAKED, AND THE INCREASED OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE USER AND THE UTILITY. WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT HOW IT LOOKS PRETTY INEVITABLE THAT OUR TRANSPORTATION IS GOING TO BE ELECTRIFIED IN THE LONG-TERM. EARLY INVESTMENT NOW IS GOING TO BE CHEAPER THAN LATER INVESTMENT. THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PUBLIC AGENCIES, AND MITCH'S EXAMPLE, WHERE THE UTILITY GOT OUT IN FRONT, THEY WERE ABLE TO RAISE THE MONEY, AND THERE WERE ISSUES EARLIER. THIS IS A POLICY-TYPE DECISION, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THE COMMUNITY COULD PUSH FOR. 

>> WELL, WE TALKED ABOUT INSTALLING A BATTERY ON THE SHORT SIDE. OF COURSE, WE HAVE A BATTERY MANUFACTURER HERE. WHAT COULD BE COOL IS IF YOU ALSO HAD A CHARGING STATION FOR CARS AND OBVIOUS THESE THINGS WHERE YOU HAVE THE SHORE. WE WERE ALSO TALKING ABOUT MAKING A BATTERY -- YOU TELL THE APP YOU NEED SURE POWER, AND THE ELECTRIC TRUCK WILL AMPLIFY THE VESSELS FOR SOME HOURS. THAT IS A GREAT POSSIBILITY. OF COURSE , YOU CAN TAKE ENERGY FROM THE BATTERIES THAT ARE CONNECTED TO THE CARS IN THAT AREA. SO, THE FUTURE IS HYBRID. [LAUGHTER] 

>> THE OTHER GROUPS HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE ISSUE OF COST, AND WE HAVE ALSO THOUGHT OF SUBSIDIZING IT, AND THEN DOING SOMETHING BENEFICIAL WITH THE UNUSED ENERGY. WE HAVE -- ON 

>> WE HAVE TWO IDEAS, ONE IS TO INSTALL SOME BATTERY CAPACITY. TO A UTILITY, IT WOULD BE USED WHEN THE SHIP PULLS IN AND BE USED ON THE SHORE POWER. WHEN THE SHIPS ARE NOT THERE, THEY COULD USE THAT BATTERY CAPACITY TO MATCH THE ENERGY DEMAND REQUIRED FROM THE UTILITY, SO IT COULD SORT OF BE A THING THAT IS ALWAYS AVAILABLE TO USE DURING PEAK DEMAND. YOU CAN SELL ENERGY BACK TO THE UTILITY. I DO NOT IF I SAID ALL OF THAT RIGHT. THE SECOND IDEA -- MAYBE ALLOWING SHIPS THAT BURN ALTERNATIVE FUELS THAT SWITCH TO CLEAN-BURNING OR BIODIESEL, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO ON SHORE POWER. YOU HAVE A CLEANER ENERGY FORM. I DO NOT KNOW IF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WOULD ALLOW THAT. RIGHT NOW, I DO NOT THINK THERE ARE ANY EXCEPTIONS. THAT IS JUST AN IDEA WE CAME UP WITH. 

>> REGARDING THAT YEAH, -- THAT, YES, THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WOULD ALLOW ALTERNATIVE MEANS. IF YOU DEMONSTRATED HELPS, YES. WE TALKED ABOUT COLD IRONING, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER ACCEPTED AND THEY ALSO USE IT, AND THAT IS WHAT THEY CALL SOCK ON THE STACK. IT IS A TUBE THAT GOES OVER THE SMOKE STACK AND TAKES THE FUMES FROM THE SHIP COMING IN , AND THEY CLEAN IT, BASICALLY, AND DID NOT -- THEY DO NOT HAVE TO COLD IRON IT. IT IS BASICALLY ONE BARGE. IT IS AN EXPENSIVE ONE, BUT IT IS PROVEN TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO THE STATE , AND NOW THEY ARE BUILDING A SECOND 1, 2 -- A SECOND ONE, TOO. 

>> ANYBODY ELSE -- THANK YOU FOR THE IDEAS. WE WILL TRY TO POST SOME TOGETHER. I THINK IT IS TIME FOR A BREAK. 

>> [INDISCERNIBLE] [LAUGHTER] YOU HAVE FIVE MINUTES. 

>> HELLO. PLEASE TAKE YOUR SEATS. I GAVE YOU SOME BONUS TIME. IT IS MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES. AND WE WILL GO RIGHT INTO STANDARD ACTIVITY, MITCH. THANK YOU. 

MITCH: WE ARE GETTING INTO OUR NAVAL ARCHITECTURAL PANEL, SOIL HAVE A QUICK ACTIVITY ABOUT VESSEL -- SO WE WILL HAVE A QUICK ACTIVITY ABOUT VESSEL DESIGN. BEFORE OUR BRIGHT MINDS COME UP, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO SPEND A COUPLE MINUTES THINKING ABOUT HOW TO BUILD A BOAT COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY. WHAT NEEDS -- NEED, CREATIVE STRAIGHT THINGS CAN YOU DO WITH YOUR BOA T THOSE COMPARE WITH THESE GUYS. YOU HAVE TWO MINUTES, AND THAT WE WILL SHARE. 

MITCH: ALL RIGHT. IT IS TIME TO SHARE THOSE CREATIVE IDEAS. DOES ANYBODY WANT TO GO FIRST? 

>> ACTUALLY, WE CAME UP WITH ONE THAT CONSIDERS DRIVERLESS TECHNOLOGY APPLIED TO THE SHIPS. 

MITCH: IS THERE A REASON WHY YOU WOULD NOT DO THAT WITH A NORMAL DIESEL ENGINE? YOU ARE DOING COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY, SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. ANY OTHERS? 

>> YOU COULD HAVE POWER STORAGE AT DIFFERENT COMPARTMENTS. THAT IS IDEA -- IDEAL FOR THE NAVAL BASES. 

MITCH: NEXT TABLE. 

>> YOU HAVE TOTAL FLEXIBILITY IN LOCATING MACHINERY. YOU CAN PUT GENERATORS IN THE OPTIMAL LOCATION. YOU CAN HAVE A VESSEL THAT CAN OPERATE ALL-ELECTRIC IN CERTAIN MODES, LIKE, FOR NOISE REDUCTION, OR IF YOU ARE, LIKE, A FIREFIGHTING VESSEL, IF YOU ARE NEAR A GAS CLOUD, YOU CAN SWITCH OVER TO BATTERIES FOR EMERGENCIES SO YOUR ENGINES DO NOT INGEST NATURAL GAS. ALSO, PROVIDE A MICRO-GRID ON THE SHIP. AND THE LAST ONE, GO WITH A TOTAL DC DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM -- ONE,DC. CABLES COULD BE REPLACED. GET RID OF THE TRANSFORMERS. REPLACE CIRCUIT BREAKERS WITH POWER ELECTRONICS, SO IT REDUCES THE AMOUNT OF SWITCH GEAR. THERE ARE A LOT OF ADVANTAGES. 

MITCH: CAN'T HEAR YOU. 

>> MODULES CAN BE DIVIDED INTO SEPARATE MODULES, NOT CONSTRAINED BY THE BATTERY SIZE. SOME [INDISCERNIBLE] THEY ARE DESIGNED VERY SENSITIVE, SUPER TINY, OR SOMETHING. YOU CANNOT PUT BIG EQUIPMENT INSIDE, BUT YOU CAN SEPARATE A HUGE BATTERY SYSTEM INTO SMALL SYSTEMS. 

MITCH: NOTHING? WOW. 

>> THIS HAS PROBABLY BEEN DONE, BUT MY IDEA I WROTE ON MY IDEA NOTEBOOK, ON THESE BIG, REFRIGERATED CARGO SHIPS, HAVE A POWER SYSTEM THAT D CONFLICTS SO ALL THE COMPRESSORS DO NOT KICK ON AT THE SAME TIME, SO YOU HAVE A MORE STABLE LOAD, AND THAT IS PATENTED IN MY IDEA NOTEBOOK, SO -- [LAUGHTER] 

>> I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE VESSEL, BUT SOME OF THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY HAVE FISHING VESSELS. YOU OBVIOUSLY CAN DECOUPLE THE GEARBOX FROM THE SHAFT, SO THERE ARE REDESIGN OPPORTUNITIES, AND THEN RELATED TO THAT, CARGO CONTAINER PLACEMENT CAPACITY. YOU CAN DISTRIBUTE -- THAT IS A LOT OF CABLES, BUT TRYING TO REPLACE EVERY THING MORE IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES. MAYBE THEN THERE IS OPPORTUNITY IN THESE, YOU KNOW, STRANGE CARGO PAIRINGS. THAT IS PART OF IT. 

>> PRETTY MUCH DITTO THAT. BATTERIES CAN BE PLACED ANYWHERE -- THE MACHINERY CAN BE REPLACED. THE WEIGHT CAN BE REPLACED, USED MORE EASILY. 

MITCH: ALL RIGHT, WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK WE SHOULD CONSIDER IS THAT THERE IS THE OPPORTUNITY WITH THE HYDROGEN FUEL-CELL SHIP TO TAKE THE WATER FROM THE OCEAN, PUT IT INTO HYDROGEN, AND THE SHIP WOULD NEVER HAVE TO GO TO COURT TO FUEL -- PORT TO FUEL. 

>> -- NOT -- 

MITCH: ALL RIGHT, THANKS FOR YOUR IDEAS. WE WILL LISTEN TO SOME OF THE PANELISTS. -- TOLD ME HE WANTED ME TO BE A MODERATOR AGAIN BECAUSE I DID SUCH AN AMAZING JOB YESTERDAY. TWO ARE FOR SAYING THAT. OUR FIRST SPEAKER IS KEVIN PRINCE. KEVIN RECEIVED HIS B.S.D. IN NAVAL ARCHITECTURE. HE HAS 30 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. HIS EXPERIENCE INVOLVES U.S. NAVY AND COMMERCIAL DESIGN. KEVIN IS A MEMBER OF -- I AM NOT SURE IF YOU PRONOUNCE THESE LETTERS, AS NE -- ASM E, THE SOCIETY OF TRIBOLOGY IS. HE IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PANEL AND 16 SHIFTING SYSTEMS . I ALMOST SAID A COBALT CHAIRMAN. A COCHAIRMAN. THAT IS HOW IT CHEMIST READS. COBALT CHAIRMAN OF THE PANEL IS THE SEVEN. EMERGING FORENSIC, AND A MEMBER OF THE JOINT SHIP DESIGN COMMITTEE. HE IS A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER IN MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA, AND A CHARTER ENGINEER THE ENGINEERING COUNCIL. HE IS EMPLOYED AS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF ENGINEERING AT -- AND THE TITLE OF HIS PRESENTATION IS "ELECTRIC HYDRO-COMPULSION FOR LARGE SHIPS." 

MR. PRINCE: THANK YOU. SO, THE TITLE IS "HYBRID ELECTRIC COMPULSION FOR LARGE SHIPS." THE NEW CLASS FOR THE NAVY -- THE PREVIOUS NAVY USES GAS-DRIVEN PROPULSION. THEY USE AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT DRIVES INTO THE REDUCTION GEAR POWERED BY THE SERVICE GENERATOR SET THAT IS LEE -- USED FOR LOW-AND OPERATION -- LOW- END OPERATION. AS YOU KNOW, THE RECENT LAUNCHING OF THE FULLY INTEGRATED IPS SYSTEM ON THE NAVY -- THAT COVERS EVERYTHING FROM THE PROPULSION PLANT TO THE SHIP SERVICE LOAD AND COMBAT LOAD. SHIPS THAT ARE MECHANICAL, GAS-DRIVEN, NOW HAVE A HYBRID ELECTRIC DRIVE ATTACHED TO THE MAIN REDUCTION GEAR WHICH TAKES SHIP-SERVICE TO LECTURE POWER TO POWER THE GIVING OF SLOW-SPEED APPLICATIONS. THEY WERE ALSO TRYING TO USE THAT TO GENERATE POWER WHILE THE SHIP IS RUNNING ON PROPULSION POWER. SO, IN THE COMMERCIAL WORLD -- I AM SURE MOST OF YOU ARE FAMILIAR -- TAKERS HAVE SHAFT-DRIVEN GENERATORS WHERE THE PROPULSION SHAFT ALSO IS A GENERATOR ROTOR, AND ON SOME SHIPS THEY HAVE WASTE HEAT, WHERE THEY USE THE PROPULSION WASTE HEAT TO DEVELOP ELECTRIC THROUGH STEAM TURBINES. SO, WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO LOOK AT IN LARGE SHIPS IS WHERE WOULD A BATTERY APPLICATION BE USEFUL, NOT REALLY KNOWING WHAT THE UPPER BOUNDS OF BATTERY TECHNOLOGY IS. SO, I JUST REALLY WANTED TO LOOK AT WHAT IS THE NEED IN THE FUTURE. SO -- THERE WE GO. 

>>

>> COME ON, MODERATOR. [LAUGHTER] 

MR. PRINCE: I MOVED THE MODEL. 

MITCH: SORRY. I CAN DO THAT FOR YOU IF YOU WOULD LIKE. 

MR. PRINCE: I HAVE TWO MORE OPTIONS. SO, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS GO THROUGH WHAT OTHER PROPULSION PLANT CONSIDERATIONS, WHAT WE THINK OUR HYBRID ENABLERS, TWO LOOK AT TWO APPLICATIONS, AND OCEAN CONTROL VESSEL AND DISCUSS OTHER NAVAL ARCHITECT'S ITERATION WOULD GO INTO IT. SO, THIS IS PRETTY STANDARD FOR EVERY SHIP DESIGN. THE OWNER REQUIREMENTS -- THEY WANT AN EFFICIENT PLANT, REDUCE LIFECYCLE COST. THERE ARE REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS YOU HAVE TO MEET. A LOT OF THAT FALLS INTO THE ADMISSION ZONE. -- EMISSION ZONE. THEN THE OPERATING PROFILE. THERE ARE LOW-SPEED OPERATIONS YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER AND DESIGN INTO. LOOKING AT AN OCEAN CONTROL VESSEL, THIS COULD BE A COAST-GUARD CUTTER, A LARGE CORVETTE, OR A SMALL FRIGATE -- IT IS THE SAME TYPE OF PLANT. YOU HAVE TO BALANCE THE TIME REQUIREMENTS OF ENDURANCE, TIME ON STATION, AND THE TOP SPEED. SO, YOU LOOK AT ONE OF THE TYPICAL PLANT OPTIONS YOU COULD USE -- A COMBINED DIESEL -- GUESS TURBINE PLANT, AND THE DIFFERENCE IS IF IT IS A D, YOU ARE USINGAG THE DIESEL AND THE GAS THAT IF IT IS -- YOU HAVE DIESELS THERE FOR MEETING ENDURANCE POWER. YOU ARE USING GAS TURBINES TO MEET YOUR TOP SPEED REPUBLIC -- REQUIREMENT. A LOT OF THESE VESSELS HAVE UNDERWAY OPERATIONS THAT NEED TO BE DONE AT LOITERING SPEEDS, WHICH ARE ANYTHING BELOW FIVE KNOTS. YOU HAVE THIS, KIND OF, DIVERGENT NEED FOR POWER ON THE SHIP. THAT WOULD BE A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR HYBRID PROPULSION. YOU HAVE LOW-SPEED OPERATIONS, WHICH COULD ILL MINUTE THE USE OF PROPULSION DIESEL, WHICH WOULD IMPROVE THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND IMPROVE THE ENERGY MAINTENANCE. ONCE YOU OPERATE AN ENGINE BELOW 40% POWER, YOU REALLY BEGIN TO CARBON UP THE PISTONS, AND THAT IS A MAINTENANCE PROBLEM. LOOKING AT THE OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS FOR THE SHIP, YOU NEED TO MEET A CONTRACT REQUIREMENT TO PROVIDE FULL POWER TO MEET YOUR FULL-POWER SPEED REQUIREMENTS. YOU NEED TO MEET YOUR ENDURANCE RANGE REQUIREMENTS. YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EFFICIENT PROPULSION PLANT, SO THAT YOU'RE NOT CARRYING AROUND ACCESS FUEL IN THE SHIP THAT DRIVES THE SIZE OF THE SHIP. IN SOME PLANTS, YOU ALSO HAVE THESE LOW-SPEED OPERATION REQUIREMENTS, WHICH ARE NOT NECESSARILY A CONTRACT REQUIREMENT PLACED ON THE SHIP, OTHER THAN ATTEMPTING TO REDUCE MAINTENANCE COSTS AND WHATNOT. AGAIN, WE ARE THINKING OF THESE OPERATIONAL SPECTRUMS WOULD BE GOOD TO ELIMINATE THE USE OF THE DIESEL AND REPLACE THEM WITH BATTERIES. LOOKING AT THE SPEED POWER CURVE FOR THOSE TYPES OF SHIPS, YOU CAN SEE WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE A 25, 30-NOT RANGE, YOU ADD YOU HAVE A CONTRACTUAL REQUIREMENT. WHAT YOU TRY TO DO ON YOUR TWO DIESELS -- AGAIN, THE TOP SPEED REQUIREMENT IS A CONTRACTUAL REQUIREMENT. YOU USUALLY HAVE TO MEET THAT ADD A PERCENTAGE OF YOUR INSTALLED POWER. IT COULD RANGE ANYWHERE FROM 80% TO 100%. WHEN YOU BACK DOWN TO YOUR DIESEL AND CRUISE RANGE, THERE USUALLY IS A CONTRACTUAL REQUIREMENT TO MEET THOSE POWERS, AGAIN, AS SOME PERCENTAGE OF THE MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS RATING OF THE DIESELS . AGAIN, THAT VARIES, BUT USUALLY 80% TO 100%. WHEN YOU GET DOWN BELOW THAT, YOU ARE OPERATING BELOW THE 40% LEVEL ON YOUR ENGINE. TO MAKE FIVE KNOTS, YOU NEED ABOUT A HUNDRED THOUSAND TOTAL FOR THE SHIP -- 150,000. 300,000 TOTAL FOR THE SHIP. WHAT KIND OF VOLTAGE DOING IT -- WE ARE ASSUMING A 650 BOTH D.C., 100 -- 150,000 HORSEPOWER MOTOR. IF YOU LOOK AT A 45-DAY DEPLOYMENT, ASSUMING A DAYS IS THE LOITERING POSITION, IT WOULD REQUIRE ABOUT 10,000 KW HOURS OF ENERGY, OR 15,500 AMP HOURS. THE OTHER THING IS YOU COULD LOOK AT IT FOR LOITERING SPEEDS TO SEE IF YOU COULD USE IT TO COVER YOUR INSTALLED SHIP SERVICE POWER, SO THAT YOU COULD, PERHAPS, USE THE SHIP SERVICE GENERATORS TO MEET YOUR LOITERING CONDITIONS. AGAIN, IN A HYBRID, REPEATING INTO ONE OF THE GEARS. IF YOU WERE TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD LOOK AT A FOUR-OUR CAPACITY THAT WOULD BE AROUND 700 AMP HOURS. LOOKING AT ANOTHER OPTION, WE HAVE A REQUIREMENT TO NEED A PATROL SPEED UP ABOUT 15 KNOTS. THIS WILL BE A SINGLE DIESEL LOAD CONDITION AT AROUND 50% OR LESS. WHAT CAN WE DO TO REPLACE DEMAND -- THAT CONDITION WOULD REQUIRE 1500 HORSEPOWER PER STAFF. -- SHAFT. AGAIN, WITH THE VOLTAGE NEED TO BE FOR AN OPTIMAL CHOICE IN BATTERY SOLUTION? THE TIME IT WOULD BE AGAIN, THE LOSSES -- WE LOOK AN EIGHT-HOUR APPROVAL, OR BATTERY OPERATION. WE THINK THAT WOULD BE 16,000 K W KILOWATT HOURS, OR 2500 AMP HOURS OF BATTERY WOULD BE NEW PAIR OF SECOND OPTION WE WOULD LOOK AT IS A CONTAINER SHIP. AGAIN, THE PROPULSION PLANTS IN THESE SHIPS ARE DESIGNED TO OPTIMIZE THE FUEL EFFICIENCY DURING TRANSIT CONDITION. A LOT OF THESE VESSELS ONLY OPERATE AT ONE SPEED . A LOT OF THEM USE A SHAFT-DRIVEN GENERATOR UNDERWAY, SO THEY ARE NOT EVEN RUNNING SHIP SERVICE GENERATORS. THEY HAVE THE PROBLEM THAT AS YOU GET INTO PORTS, ENVIRONMENTAL EXCLUSION ZONES, YOU ARE IN A LOOSE SULFUR FUEL, SO YOU'RE NOT VIOLATING THE EMISSIONS. AGAIN, WE THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HYBRID APPROACH IN USING BATTERIES. WE LOOKED AT WHAT WOULD BE THE OVERALL EFFICIENCY NEEDED TO MEET EMISSION CONTROLS. THAT WOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE. THIS IS PROBABLY NOW A RELATIVELY SMALL CONTAINER SHIP, NOT THAT THEY HAVE 100,000 HORSEPOWER SHIPS OUT THERE. WE ARE LOOKING AT ONE THAT WOULD ONLY BE AROUND 20,000 BRAKE HORSEPOWER -- LOW-SPEED DIESEL WOULD INCLUDE AN ENGINE MARGIN TO MEET A 21-NOT DESIGN SPEED. AGAIN, AS YOU GET DOWN BELOW THE 50-NOT REGIME, YOU ARE ONLY LOOKING AT 4000 HORSEPOWER TO MAKE 12 KNOTS. WHAT CAN WE DO WITH BATTERIES? LOOKING AT THE OPERATIONAL PROFILE, THESE ARE HOURS SPENT AT SPEEDS FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR. YOU CAN SEE HERE IN THE CONTAINER SHIP, YOU ARE SPENDING MOST OF YOUR TIME AT YOUR TRANSIT SPEED, BUT THEN THERE IS A VERY SMALL PERIOD OF TIME BELOW 12 KNOTS WHERE BATTERIES AND BE A GOOD SOLUTION. LOOKING AT WHAT THE NEED WOULD BE, YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE OF WHAT THE OPERATIONAL PROFILE IS FOR THAT SHIP'S ROUTE. YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE 200 MILE EMISSION CONTROL AREA IS ONE THING. YOU HAVE TO MEET DESTINATION PORTS. BALTIMORE IS 150 MILES FROM THE ENTRANCE TO THE ATLANTIC. IN ORDER TO DO THAT, THEN, USING THAT TYPE OF SCENARIO WITH BATTERIES, WE WOULD ASSUME A 400 HORSEPOWER MOTOR. WITH THE EFFICIENCIES, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 3400 K W. WHAT WOULD BE DOUBLE TO AGAIN WITH THE BATTERY SOLUTION. TIME OF OPERATION, WE ARE LOOKING AT 350 NAUTICAL MILES AT 12 KNOTS. THAT WOULD BE 29 HOURS. WE NEED ABOUT 99 THOUSAND KILOWATT HOURS OF ENERGY, AND I WE WOULD ALSO HAVE TO PUT ON THAT SOME LOITERING TIME AT ANCHOR. BECAUSE OF COURT TRAFFIC, -- PORT TRAFFIC, THE TOTAL ENERGY REQUIREMENT WOULD BE ABOUT 6000 KILOWATT HOURS FOR A TOTAL ENERGY STORAGE REQUIREMENT OF 104,000 KILOWATT HOURS. SOME CONSIDERATION -- TIME IN PORT IS LIMITED FOR THESE LARGER SHIPS. CONTAINER SHIPS ARE IN AND OUT IN ABOUT 12 HOURS. COULD WE RECHARGE THAT AMOUNT OF STORAGE IN 12 HOURS IN PORT? IF NOT, WE WOULD HAVE TO DOUBLE THE REQUIREMENT. HOW MUCH WOULD AN UNDERWEIGHT RECHARGE ADD TO DO THAT DURING THE TRANSIT PERIOD? THAT WOULD ALL HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED AS FAR AS WHAT IS THE BREAK IN THE NEED FOR INSTALLING BATTERIES VERSUS A DEDICATED SHIP SERVICE PLANS THAT COULD RUN ON LOW-SULFUR FUEL, AND ALL THE IMPACTS FOR CONVERTING THAT STORED ENERGY WOULD HAVE TO BE INVESTIGATED. SOME POINTS OF INTEREST -- A LOT OF THESE HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED. DO THE CURRENT DESIGN STANDARDS THAT ARE BEING USED NOW -- DO THEY COVER BATTERIES THAT WOULD MEET THIS SIZE REQUIREMENT GOING FORWARD? OUR QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE BATTERY POWER DENSITY -- CAN WE GET WOMEN NEED TO GO, AND WE DEFINITELY NEED THE PHYSICAL DIMENSION INFORMATION ON THOSE. WHAT WOULD THE RECHARGE TIME TO BE, AND AGAIN, WHAT ARE THE VENTING AND SAFETY ISSUES? WITH THOSE MATTERS? THAT IS MY PRESENTATION -- WITH THOSE BATTERIES. THAT IS MY PRESENTATION. [APPLAUSE] 

MITCH: OK. THANK YOU. OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS WILL -- WHO HAS BEEN WORKING IN THE MARINE FIELD AS AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS. HE CURRENTLY SERVES AS THE CHIEF LOGICAL ENGINEER AT ELLIOTT BAY DESIGN GROUP IN SEATTLE. HE IS A GRADUATE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON. HE HAS EXCELLED IN THE VESSEL LOGICAL STUDIES, AND ALL LEVELS OF SYSTEM DESIGN ON A MARINE VESSEL. FOR THE LAST SEVEN -- SEVEN YEARS HE HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE HYBRID AND ELECTRIC PROPULSION OPPORTUNITIES RANGING FROM SMALL VESSEL, ONLY FAIRY VESSELS TO LARGE FAIRIES . I HOPE YOU DO NOT MIND IF I SHARE ONE PART OF YOUR BACKGROUND. TALKING WITH WILL, HE ALSO WORKED FOR FOUR YEARS IN A GOLD MINE IN FAIRBANKS, ALASKA, WHICH SOUNDS LIKE AN AMAZING EXPERIENCE. TALK ABOUT HAVING TO COME UP WITH ANSWERS UNDER PRESSURE -- ALL KINDS OF PRESSURE IN A TOUGH ENVIRONMENT. I ENJOYED HEARING ABOUT THAT PART OF HIS EXPENSE. ANYWAY, WILL'S TITLE TODAY IS "PAYBACK OF LITHIUM-ION FOUR NORTHWEST --" 

WILL: ALL RIGHT, FIRST I WANT TO THANK -- TOM, TODD, EVERYBODY, FOR ORGANIZING THE FABULOUS CONFERENCE. WE HAVE HAD SO MANY FASCINATING PRESENTATIONS, AND THE SIDE CONVERSATIONS HAVE BEEN EQUALLY AS FASCINATING. I APPRECIATE ALL THE CONVERSATIONS. THIS CONFERENCE HAS PUT ME IN A MUCH STRONGER POSITION TO, YOU KNOW, SUPPORT THE CLIENTS AT ELLIOTT BAY DESIGN GROUP, INVESTIGATE THESE TECHNOLOGIES. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. COMPARED TO PAY BACK, ONE THING I WANT TO MENTION ABOUT THIS PRESENTATION IS THERE IS A TECHNICAL PAPER THAT UNDERLIES IT. IF ANYONE WANTS TO DELVE INTO THE DETAILS TO A GREATER DEGREE, I WELCOME ANY QUESTIONS. I CAN SEND YOU A COPY OF THAT PAPER. I WILL FIGURE IT OUT IN A SECOND. 

MITCH: I GOT THIS. [LAUGHTER] 

WILL: IS IT UP? 

MITCH: IT IS TO THE SIDE. 

WILL: AS TO THE SIDE. THANK IT. LET'S TRY IT AGAIN. SO, A LOT OF IS WE HAVE COVERED. THE ADVANTAGES OF LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES ARE ANY -- THAT RELATE. REDUNDANCY A LOT OF TIMES CHANCES TO SAFETY. INCREASED EFFICIENCY, EXCELS WITH HIGHLY VARIABLE LOADS, DYNAMIC POSITIONING, REDUCED EMISSIONS. CARBON EMISSION CREDITS. COMPATIBILITY WITH SOLAR AND WIND. WHAT I AM FOCUSED ON, AND THE KEY INGREDIENT 

FOR WHAT I AM: THE NORTHWEST ADVANTAGE -- ELECTRIC RATES CAN BE ENJOYED. SEAN HAD A POINT ABOUT DEMAND RATES. WE WERE CONSUMING SO MUCH ENERGY THAT THE KILOWATT RATE IS MUCH LARGER THAN THE DEMAND RATE. NOW, DIESELS HAVE AVERAGED 250 PER GALLON OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. SO, JUST DIESEL COSTS ALONE -- A COST OF PRODUCING ELECTRICITY IN THE WATER FROM A FREE PICTURE A DIESEL ELECTRIC, WOULD BE $.18 PER KILOWATT HOUR. OPERATING INCENTIVES -- THE MAINTENANCE OF CHANGING PACKS, ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF, YOU ARE PROBABLY UP TO AT LEAST $.20 PER KILOWATT HOUR. THIS IS A CONSERVATIVE MEMBER. IF YOU HAVE A LITHIUM ION PACK, AND IT SUPPLIES 10,000 CYCLES, WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE GETTING CLOSE TO, IT IS GOING TO COST $.10 PER KILOWATT ARTICLE -- OUR CYCLE. THAT 10 SET PRICE WOULD UNDERCUT THE DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN MAKING ELECTRICITY OUT ON THE WATER AND YOUR SHORESIDE COST. SHORESIDE COST IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST IS SO CHEAP, YOU HAVE THIS HUGE DIFFERENTIAL IN PLAY. WHAT I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU IS A LITHIUM ION TECHNOLOGY IS BASICALLY THAT NOW. THE NUMBERS AT THE BOTTOM REITERATE THAT. THAT IS THE DIFFERENTIAL, $.14 PER KILOWATT HOUR CYCLE AND WE ARE TRYING TO UNDERCUT THAT, AND BASICALLY THE TARGET, AS THIS PAYBACK WILL SHOW, IS $.10 PER KILOWATT CYCLE. -- OUR CYCLE HERE THIS IS OUT OF THE IEEE STANDARD 1679. IT IS GENERALLY 2500 CYCLES. OBVIOUSLY, WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. THIS IS FOCUSED ON IF YOU REDUCE THAT DISCHARGE BY A FACTOR OF TWO, 50%, YOU WILL GET MORE THAN A FACTOR OF TWO IMPROVEMENT IN THE CYCLE LIFE, AND WITH THIS, IT IS 6900 CYCLES. I WILL BE LOOKING AT THREE CHEMISTRIES -- THE LTO, FOR EXAMPLE. WE ARE A TEMPLATING IT DIRECTLY ONTO THE CURVE. THE LIQUID ION MANUFACTURERS MIGHT HAVE THESE CURVES. I'M NOT SURE IF THEY WOULD BE PROPRIETARY. IT MIGHT DIFFER A BIT, BUT I THINK THE GENERAL IDEA IS QUITE VALID. FLEXIBLE, THE LTO -- WE ARE ASSUMING 20,000 CYCLES -- FOR EXAMPLE, THE LTO -- WE ARE ASSUMING 20,000 CYCLES. THE SAME MULTIPLE GIVE A 55,200 -- GIVE US 55,200. YOU HAD TO ALLOW ME AT LEAST ONE ANIMATION. HERE WE GO. WHAT I AM LOOKING AT HIS EFFECTIVE COST VERSUS AFFECTIVE LIFECYCLE COST. THE AFFECTIVE LIFECYCLE COST IS THE COST OF THE LIFE OF THE BATTERY. WHEN IT COMES TO EFFECTIVE COST, THERE IS A DOWNSIDE TO REDUCING YOUR DISCHARGE. MAGICALLY, IT COSTS AN EVEN NUMBER OF $1000. THE RIGHT, WE ARE 50% DISCHARGE. ASSUMING WE NEED THE SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY ACROSS THE WATER, WE NEED TWO OF THEM. THE PRICE DOUBLES TO $2000 PER KILOWATT HOUR EFFECTIVELY. NOW, IF WE LOOKED AT THE EFFECTIVE LIFESTYLE COSTS. THAT WORKS OUT FOR -- TO 40% -- $.40 PER KILOWATT CYCLE. WE ARE NOWHERE NEAR THE $.10 TARGET WE ARE LOOKING FOR. EVEN THOUGH THE UPFRONT PRICE DOUBLED, THE PRICES DROPPED TO $.29 PER KILOWATT HOUR CYCLE. IF WE TAKE THIS -- AND WE CAN ACTUALLY GRAPH IT. THE BLUE LINE, THE IEEE 1679, THE LIFECYCLE SHOWS THE COST THROUGH THE RANGE. IT HAS A BRIEF UPTICK INITIALLY, BUT IT GOES FROM THE $.40 DOWN TO THE $.29, BUT IT KEEPS GOING. AS MUCH AS IT IS HARD TO GET ALL THE WAY AND UTILIZE ANYTHING AT 5%, YOU WOULD BE DOWN AT ABOUT THREE CENTS PER KILOWATT CYCLE. SO, WELL UNDER THE TARGET. SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ASSUMPTIONS. A BIG ONE IS THAT THIS IS A NEW VESSEL, AND WE ARE COMPARING A NEW VESSEL -- YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME SORT OF ROUTE. WE ARE GOING TO COMPARE DIESEL ELECTRIC TO ONES THAT MAY STILL BE DIESEL ELECTRIC, BUT HAVING A SIZABLE BATTERY ON BOARD. THIS IS SIMILAR TO A LARGE VESSEL. THIS IS ALL PREDICATED UPON THE LARGEST WAN SOFT VESSELS. PART OF THAT, I WANTED TO STAY AWAY FROM LOW-WEIGHT IMPACT. AS MUCH AS REDUCING -- LOSING THE ENTRIES WOULD REDUCE THE SIZE AND QUANTITY OF DIESELS NEEDED ON BOARD, AND TO A GREATER DEGREE, AS POINTED OUT BY ENABLE ACTIVEX, PROBABLY YOUR FUEL TANK WOULD BE SUBSTANTIALLY DOWNSIZED BECAUSE -- POINTED OUT BY ENABLE ARCHITECT, PROBABLY YOUR FOOL -- FUEL TANK WOULD BE SUBSTANTIALLY DOWNSIZED BECAUSE YOU WOULD NOT NEED THE EXTRA SUPPLY OF FUEL. AFTER EACH CHARGING WE ARE FULLY RECHARGING MY DEPENDING ON THE DEPTH OF DISCHARGE, THE BATTERY. 18 CHARGES PER DAY -- THAT IS TYPICAL FOR LARGER VESSELS. MANY SMALLER OPERATORS IN THE REGION AS WELL. ASSUMING THAT YOU WERE GOING TO USE THESE BATTERIES AT 100% DEPTH TO DISCHARGE, WE ARE ASSUMING FOUR BATTERY ROOMS. THE LAST TWO ITEMS -- THE BATTERY ROOM STRUCTURAL COSTS FOR THE NEW VESSEL WOULD BE OFFSET BY SAVINGS IN OTHER STRUCTURAL COSTS, SUCH AS THE ENGINE ROOM SPACES. ALSO, THE DIESEL GENERATORS WOULD BE RETAINED. WE ARE LOOKING AT SOME THING LIKE A CHEVY VOLT -- A PLUG-IN ELECTRIC HYBRID VESSEL. ONCE THE BATTERIES ARE DRAINED, THE DIESELS WILL KICK ON AND KEEP YOU RUNNING. AS FAR AS SUCH NATURAL COSTS, IT WOULD ADD SOME COST, BUT IT IS FELT THAT ENGINE ROOMS MIGHT BE DOWNSIZED. YOU WOULD HAVE SOME COST REDUCTIONS AS WELL. AND LOOKING AT THOSE COSTS, SOME OF THEM ARE SCALED WITH REDUCING DOD. FOR EXAMPLE, AIR AND WATER COOLING SYSTEMS FOR THE BATTERY ROOMS, FIRE SUPPRESSION -- THOSE ARE THINGS WHEN WE LOOK AT THESE HEAVY REDUCTIONS IN DEPTH AND DISCHARGE, THEY GO UP QUITE A BIT. IF YOU REDUCE YOUR DEPTH TO DISCHARGE BY 50%, NATALIE ARE YOU DOUBLING THE EFFECTIVE COST OF THE BATTERIES, -- NOT ONLY ARE YOU DOUBLING THE EFFECTIVE COST OF THE BATTERIES, BUT YOU ARE ALSO, MAYBE NOT -- IS ANALYSIS ASSUMES YOU ARE DOUBLING -- WE CURRENTLY CONSERVATIVE, BUT THESE PRICES WOULD GO UP AS WELL. SHORT-POWER CHARGING, THAT IS A DIFFERENT STORY. IT DOES NOT GO UP WITH DEPTH TO DISCHARGE. IT IS REALLY A FUNCTION OF THE TIME RATE OR THE THROUGHPUT YOU WANT AT THE DOCK. IT IS A FUNCTION OF HOW LONG YOU'RE ABLE TO SIT THERE AT THE DOCK. THIS RIGHT NOW ASSUMES IT IS 20 MINUTES -- 2000 KILOWATT HOURS RESULTS IN SIX MEGAWATTS. SO, IS ESSENTIAL, THE POWER. AS FAR AS THE $1 MILLION PRICE GOES, I WISH I HAD A CHANCE TO SPEAK TO BEN BEFORE I CAME UP WITH A PRESENTATION, BUT THE FERRY DOCKS ARE CLOSE TO THE SOURCE OF POWER. THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST YOU ARE NEAR A SUBSTANTIAL IN THE UTILITY GRID. SO, ANOTHER ASSUMPTION THAT WAS NOT USED IN THE ANALYSIS WAS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MARK TWOS, OR IF WE DID AN UPDATE WITH THEM, THAT WOULD BE TO VESSEL ON THE ROUTE. WE ARE ONLY ASSUMING ONE VESSEL ON THE ROCK, BUT THE TECHNICAL PAPER HAS A SENSITIVITY TABLE THAT GETS INTO WHAT HAPPENS IF WE GO TO $2 MILLION FOR SURE POWER OR FOUR MILLION AND THERE IS STILL PAY BACK, AND IT IS STILL RATHER RAPID. LOOKING AT THOSE COSTS, YOU CAN SEE THEY GO UP AT ABOUT 20% DEPTH TO DISCHARGE. THEY KIND OF GO TO -- THROUGH THE ROOF. THINGS WILL REALLY GO SIDEWAYS ON YOU IN THE PAYBACK. THREE KEY PARAMETERS WE ARE FOCUSED ON IN THE PAYBACK -- LIFE IN YEARS FOR THE ONBOARD BATTERY PACK. THAT IS CRITICAL. LIFE OF THE SYSTEM HAS TO BE GREATER THAN THE PAYBACK PERIOD. THIS IS SHOWING THE EQUATION FOR THE GROSS SAVINGS AT LEAST TWO YOU CAN $.14 DIFFERENTIAL, THE 20 MINUS TO SIX, AND WE ARE OPERATING THAT -- THAT IS NOT HIM $20 PER KILOWATT PER YEAR, WHICH ON THIS SIDE WOULD BE -- $920 PER KILOWATT PER YEAR. IT INCLUDES A DISCOUNT RATE OF 5%. FOCUSED ON THREE CHEMISTRIES -- THE THREE MAIN ONES YOU ENCOUNTER IN THE MARINE AREA, LFP, NMC, LTO -- OBVIOUSLY, THIS ANALYSIS IS A BIT WRONG. THESE PRICES -- THE CYCLE LIFE'S COULD GO UP OR DOWN. WE ARE ASSUMING --. AT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED, LFP IS OFTEN THOUGHT OF AS THE SAFEST CHEMISTRY, BUT YOU NEED A LAYER OF PROTECTION THAT WOULD MAKE ANY CHEMISTRY ALMOST AS SAFE. WE ARE ASSUMING A HIGHER CYCLE LIFE AT 8000. I'M SICK, -- OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS HIGHER ENERGY DENSITY, CERTAINLY COMPARED TO LTO, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO LTO, HIGHEST CYCLE OF LIFE. HIGHEST COST, AND LEAST ENERGY DENSE. I'M NOT SURE THE WEIGHT OF THE BATTERIES IS THAT BIG OF AN ISSUE. SO, TO THE RESULTS -- THIS IS FOR LFP. WE HAVE TO DROP DOD DOWN TO 25%, AND WE GET CYCLE LIFE IMPROVEMENT FROM 3000 UP TO 41,600. THAT GETS US THE $.10 PER KILOWATT HOUR CYCLE. WE GET SIX YEARS TO PAY BACK. 25% DEPTH TO DISCHARGE WOULD LEAD TO THE QUADRUPLING OF THE BATTERY BANK'S LIFE. YOU CAN SEE THE AREA OF INTEREST HERE IS THE CROSSING POINT BETWEEN THE BLUE AND THE RED LINE, ABOUT 25%. THE AREA TO THE LEFT, WHERE THE LIFE OF THE BATTERY IS GREATER THAN PAYBACK. SO, IF WE GO TO NMC, WE GET MORE IMPRESSIVE PAYBACK AT 45%. AGAIN, GET THE 27,000 CYCLE IMPROVEMENT. THREE AND A HALF YEARS TO PAY BACK. 45% LEADS TO A 4400 KILOWATT HOUR BATTERY BANK ON BOARD THE VESSEL, WHICH WITH THE NFC, IT WILL BE SMALLER THAN A BANK OF THE SAME SIZE. FINALLY, THE LTO -- 80% DEPTH TO DISCHARGE. IT IS NOT REALLY HAVE TO IMPROVE ITS 20,000 CYCLE LIFE MUCH. UP TO 24,000 TO GET $.11 PER KILOWATT CYCLE. BACK IN OVER THREE YEARS, THE FACETS. 80% DEPTH TO DISCHARGE -- THE FASTEST OF THE THREE. 80% DEPTH TO DISCHARGE. FINANCIAL DIVIDENDS -- OBVIOUS THAT, THE MODEL SHOWED SOME VERY RAPID PAYBACK, BUT IF YOU SAW THE LIFECYCLE CURVE, WE ARE USING UP THE BATTERIES PRETTY FAST. WHAT IS FASCINATING ABOUT THIS, THIS INITIAL PAYBACK IS PAID OFF YOUR FIRES DEPRESSION, BATTERY ROOMS. WHEN YOU GO TO REPLACE THE BATTERIES A SECOND TIME, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE COSTS INVOLVED. RATHER THAN HAVING A ZERO-SUM BREAKEVEN PAYBACK POINT, YOU ARE ACHIEVING SAVINGS. I GET 590,000 A YEAR, $17.7 MILLION OVER 30 YEARS. SO, THE TRUE CHALLENGE, AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, SIX MEGAWATTS OF SURE POWER CHARGING. THAT IS 833 AMPS. WE ARE LOOKING AT A SIGNIFICANT LEVEL OF POWER. THIS WOULD BE TOO DANGEROUS FOR DIRECT INTERACTION BY VESSEL CREW. WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS FOR A RAPID PROCESS, PLUG IT IN QUICK, WAIT A WHILE, AND UNPLUG IT QUICK. IF WE HAD AN HOUR TO WAIT THE DOCK TO SET ALL UP, WE'RE TRYING TO DO THIS CHARGE IN 20 MINUTES. AS WE SAW, EVERY MINUTE CAN COUNT. LIMITED TURNAROUND REQUIRES AN AUTOMATED CONNECTION. UNTIL RECENTLY, THERE WERE, UNFORTUNATELY, NO AVAILABLE SOLUTIONS. I SAY, THE SIEMENS AND CORBIS ENERGY PROJECT WAS A BIT TECHNICAL LEAD. NO DIRECT INVOLVEMENT OF THE CREW, AT LEAST. QUICK AND SAFE CONNECTIONS. UNFORTUNATELY, IT COULD NOT ACHIEVE THE CHARGE RATES WE NEED FOR THIS APPLICATION. BUT THERE IS MORE SIGNIFICANT ADVANCES ON THE HORIZON, AS HAS ALREADY BEEN TOUCHED ON. FOR ME, THE BIG BREAKTHROUGH IS RIGHT HERE WITH THE STORAGE PROJECT. I AM NOT GOING TO TRY TO PRONOUNCE THE -- 4.16 MEGAWATT HOUR ON BOARD, AND SERVICE BY LATE 2017. AS YOU HAVE SEEN OR HEARD, THERE IS A ROBOT MAKING UP THESE MEDIA VOLTAGE CONNECTIONS. THEY ARE DOING 1200 KILOWATT PER HOUR CHARGE UP TO 5.5 MINUTES AT A 10 MEGAWATT -- 10 KILOWATT RATE. AND THERE IS ACTUALLY ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT ADVANCE. THEY ARE WORKING ON DEVELOPING A MAGNETIC RESIDENT COUPLING CONCEPT, WHICH DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY ACTUAL CONTACT TO BE INVOLVED. THE SHIP WOULD COME UP ALONGSIDE THE QUAY. SOME INVERTERS HAVE TO BE INVOLVED TO GET THE HIGH-EFFICIENCY INVOLVED. YOU HAVE TO BE WILL COILS THAT COME UP IN ALIGNMENT. THEY COULD PASS POWER TO GET HIGH FREQUENCY WITH HIGH-EFFICIENCY. SO, IN SUMMATION, THE CURRENTLY -- THE CURRENT STATE COULD ACHIEVE A WATER SIGN -- WATERSHED EVENT. INCREASED SAFETY, ENERGY CAPACITY, AND CYCLE LIFE IS PROVIDED AT REDUCE COST. WE ARE REPLACING DIESEL ELECTRICITY WITH BATTERY-STORED SHOW -- SURE POWER THAT YIELDS RAPID PAYBACK. THE LIMITATIONS WOULD FALL BY THE WAY SIDE. FLEETS AND OTHER SHORESIDE OPERATIONS SHOULD BE ACTIVELY PURSUED FOR WIDESPREAD ELECTION VACATION OF PROPULSION -- ELECTRIFICATION OF PROPULSION. THANK YOU. [APPLAUSE] 

MITCH: THANK YOU, WILL. SO, OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS JOE. IT HAS BEEN MY PLEASURE TO WORK WITH JOE FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT PROJECT. JOE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF OPERATIONS AND A SHAREHOLDER AT THE RED AND WHITE FLEET, WHICH IS BASED IN SAN FRANCISCO. JOE HAS BEEN A LIGHT CAPTAIN SINCE 1993 AND A SERVED IN THE SMALL PASSENGER VESSEL INDUSTRY IN MANY OPERATIONAL ROLES OR THE LAST 29 YEARS. THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER JOE HAS LED OR BEEN INVOLVED IN A NUMBER -- NUMEROUS ALTERNATIVE EMISSION CONTROL PROJECTS. JOE IS A GRADUATE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA IRVINE, AND HAS A MASTER OF ARTS FROM SAN FRANCISCO STATE UNIVERSITY. A LITTLE-KNOWN PART OF JOE'S BACKGROUND IS HE ALSO SERVED THREE YEARS AT THE PRACTICAL STATE CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTE IN FRACTAL, AT 70, 4 ARMED ROBBERY. -- PENITENTIARY FOR ARMED ROBBERY. JOE GAVE ME PERMISSION TO EMBELLISH HIS BACKGROUND. THAT SHOULD TEACH HIM A LESSON. ANYWAY, WELCOME JOE. 

JOE: THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR HOSTING. EVERYONE THAT IS HERE -- IT IS AN HONOR TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK WITH YOU ALL, AND I MIGHT NEED A HAND WITH MICROPHONES, BECAUSE MY PRESENTATION IS LESS OF A PRESENTATION AND MORE OF A DISCUSSION. I AM AN OPERATOR, OR WE ARE AN OPERATOR -- THAT IS NOT FOR ME. I THINK THAT WOULD BE FOR THE AUDIENCE. I CAN WALK IT AROUND. THANK YOU. SO, WE ARE ENGAGED IN A HYBRID PROJECT NOW, AND -- OK. AND THERE ARE SO MANY ANSWERS HERE IN THIS ROOM. AND THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF QUESTIONS. WE ARE IN THE QUESTIONING PHASE. HORNBLOWER'S HAS A LOT OF EXPENSE, AND MANY OF YOU DO. SO, I WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH A FEW SLIDES, AND REALLY WHAT I INTEND TO SHARE IS WHY WE ARE MAKING OUR DECISION AND WHAT QUESTIONS WE HAVE YET TO BE ANSWERED, AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE. I DO NOT KNOW FOR WEEK AND TODAY OR NOT. SO, THE RED AND WHITE FLEET, WE OPERATE IN SAN FRANCISCO. WE ARE IN THE TOURISM BUSINESS. THE MAP ON THE RIGHT SHOWS THE PRIMARY ROUTES WE ARE OPERATING IN THE CENTRAL THEY. WE PRIMARILY DUE ONE HOUR -- AN HOUR AND A HALF AND TWO-HOUR CRUISES. WE HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LITTLE WHILE. TOM'S GRANDFATHER FOUNDED THE COMPANY IN 18--- 1892. WE ARE DOING ABOUT 5000 TROOPS UNDERNEATH THE GOLDEN STATE BRIDGE A YEAR AND WE DO OUR TROOPS -- WE CATER TO AN INTERNATIONAL CLIENTELE, AND WE OFFERED FOR US IN 16 LANGUAGES. WE ARE OPERATING -- OFFER OUR TOWARDS IN 16 LANGUAGES. WE ARE OPERATING VESSELS, AND APPROACHING A NEW BUILD. SOME OF THE KEY FOCUS IS SAFETY, AND WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THE ADVANTAGES OF HYBRIDIZATION OR ELECTRIFICATION OF VESSELS, CUSTOMER SERVICE, OR THE CUSTOMER EXPENSE. THAT IS REALLY WHAT WE ARE SELLING. OUR PRODUCT IS A MEMORY PEOPLE TAKE AWAY. WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD A STRONG COMMITMENT TOWARD THE ENVIRONMENT, AND OUR PRIMARY OWNER IS A TRUE VISIONARY. HE IS ONE OF THE PRIMARY DRIVERS BEHIND THE FUEL CELL INITIATIVE. SO, AS AN OPERATOR, A SYSTEM HAS TO WORK CONSISTENTLY. AS MENTIONED EARLIER, I HAVE HELD MANY JOBS, INCLUDING TURNING WRENCHES, AND WHEN YOU HAVE PAYING CUSTOMERS, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE BOATS LEAVE ON TIME AND LEAVE SAFELY. SO, AS I MENTIONED -- MY PRESENTATION ISN'T REALLY -- I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON ENERGY, BUT THIS IS A DRIVING FORCE FOR US RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO ELECTRIFY YOUR VESSEL AND PUT ENERGY IN THEIR PRODUCED FROM A COAL BURNING PLANT, I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR ENDGAME IS, BUT CALIFORNIA IS ACTIVELY PURSUING RENEWABLE ENERGY. WE HAVE MET OUR 20% GOAL. IT WAS BACKED UP FROM ITS ORIGINAL TARGET, AND WE ARE A COUPLE YEARS AWAY FROM GETTING TO 33%, AND 13 YEARS AWAY FROM 50%. WE HAVE ACCESS TO RENEWABLE ENERGY IN CALIFORNIA. TODAY WE ARE AT 26% MOVING FORWARD ON THAT, AND I DO NOT KNOW IF YOU CAN MAKE OUT THIS GRAPH, BUT IT SHOWS THE MAKEUP OF WHERE THE ENERGY IS COMING FROM. I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE, FOR THIS GROUP, WHAT IS HAPPENING LOCALLY . IN THE STATE -- I THINK THE NEXT SLIDES HERE -- THIS IS ALSO A STATE INDICATION OF INDIVIDUAL SOLAR USERS. IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE THE SPIKE THAT HAPPENED HERE IN 2018 AND 2015. THAT'LL ONLY IS THERE GRANT MONEY FOR SOLAR PRODUCTION, BUT WE DO HAVE ACCESS -- I'M NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR. UNFORESEEN ITEM OUT OF AN IMAGE OF THE SAN FRANCISCO PORT. THE NORTHERN WATERFRONT IS PRIMARILY SHOT, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF ROOFTOPS. SOME OF THEM HAVE SOLAR ON THEM. IT IS NOT REALLY BEING UTILIZED TODAY. THIS IS OUR LOCAL UTILITY. WE GET OUR SUPPLY FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO PUBLIC UTILITY, WHICH IS -- I THINK WE MIGHT FIND OURSELVES IN A SIMILAR SITUATION AS MR. -- DID I GET THAT RIGHT? THANK YOU. WORKING WITH THE PUC. FORSHEE, WITH SAN FRANCISCO, WE HAVE OUR OWN HYDROELECTRIC DAM. THEY HAVE QUITE A BIT OF RENEWABLE ENERGY THERE. IT IS INTERESTING, IF YOU LOOK AT THE PIE CHART, OVER HALF OF THE ENERGY THAT IS BEING PRODUCED FOR PG&E IS ESSENTIALLY LOW EMISSION, AND THE NUCLEAR PLANT, THERE IS ONE NUCLEAR PLANT IN CALIFORNIA THAT IS STILL OPERATIONAL. IT IS THE DIABLO PLANT, AND THAT IS SCHEDULED TO BE PHASED OUT IN 2036, I BELIEVE, AND IT HAS TO BE REPLACED WITH RENEWABLES. THE PIE SHAPE IS GOING TO BE MOVING TOWARD RENEWABLE. SPUR STANDS FOR SAN FRANCISCO PLANNING AND URBAN RESEARCH. IT IS A LOCAL ORGANIZATION, AND THEY PUBLISHED A PAPER ON A FOSSIL FUEL THEY AREA. THEY IDENTIFIED THREE PRIMARY ACTIONS THAT ARE PRETTY OBVIOUS. ONE IS TO REDUCE ENERGY CONSUMPTION. THE SECOND IS TO SHIFT PASSENGER VESSELS, OR BASICALLY, TRANSPORTATION TO ELECTRIFICATION, AND THEN TO BE CARBONIZED THE GRID. AS YOU CAN SEE, IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING. THE WIND FARM -- LOOKING OUT TOWARD SAN FRANCISCO BAY, THAT IS LOCAL, TO. THE REASON I AM BRINGING THIS UP, WASHINGTON STATE HAS ACCESS TO LOW-COST ENERGY. OUR ENERGY COSTS ARE NOT REALLY LOW, BUT THEY ARE CLEAN. ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT BUILDING A VESSEL TODAY , THE VESSEL HAS TO HAVE AT LEAST A 30-YEAR LIFE CYCLE ON IT. THE TECHNOLOGY WE ARE PUTTING INTO IT IS LIKELY TO CHANGE MUCH QUICKER. WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE LIFE EXPECTANCY OF BATTERIES. IF YOU BOUGHT A PHONE IN 2005, AND YOU WERE BUYING IT AS A PURCHASE THAT WAS GOING TO LAST YOU 10 YEARS, AND SAY WE NEED TO THROW IT AWAY AND BUY A NEW ONE, I NEEDED TO THROW UP A COUPLE OF IMAGES TO UNDERSCORE HOW QUICKLY TECHNOLOGY IS CHANGING. AS OPERATORS, CRITICAL FOR US, OUR DECISION, AS WE MOVE FORWARD, IS TRYING TO BE FLUID WITH DEVELOPING TECHNOLOGY. SO, IF WE DO A HYBRID VESSEL, DOES IT HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY TO BUILD OUT TO FULL YEAR -- WHEN INFRASTRUCTURE BECOMES AVAILABLE. SO, I DID COME UP WITH A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS HERE. WE HAVE TALKED SOME -- I THINK DR. WARNER WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PROJECTED CHANGE IN TECHNOLOGY, POSSIBLE TECHNOLOGY CHANGE WITH BATTERY CHEMISTRY AND SOME OF THE THINGS LYING AHEAD. IT IS HARD TO SEE INTO THE FUTURE EXACTLY, BUT TIMELINES WOULD BE INTERESTING FOR OPERATORS TO KNOW. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION WHEN YOU ARE CHOOSING A BATTERY SYSTEM, AND WILL POINTED THIS OUT, TO -- IS IT IMPORTANT TO CHOOSE ONE THAT WILL LAST 10 YEARS, OR ONE THAT WILL LAST FIVE? LET'S SEE. DEVELOPMENT IN CHARGE AND INFRASTRUCTURE, THIS IS ONE OF OUR BIGGEST THRESHOLDS TO GET OVER. WE'LL ALSO WAS POINTING OUT -- WILL ALSO WAS POINTING OUT USING THE ROBOT TO GETTING -- TO SAFELY CHARGE A LARGE FAIRY. ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WITH SMALLER FERRIES IS THEY ARE NOT AS STABLE. WE ARE IN AN EXPOSED AREA, SO THERE IS A LOT OF MOTION, AND HOW TO MAKE THE CONNECTION SAFELY -- THERE ISN'T A CLEAR, OFF-THE-SHELF SOLUTION FOR THAT. HOW TO GET A REQUIRED AMOUNT OF ENERGY TO THE SHOREFRONT. THIS IS, SORT OF, A GENERAL QUESTION. I THINK IF ANYBODY HAS RESPONSES TO ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF MY DISCUSSION -- IS THAT POSSIBLE? CAN I DO THAT? THE LAST ONE IS IS IT POSSIBLE TO BUILD A VESSEL WITH TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY THAT HAS FLEXIBILITY FOR 10 YEARS, 15 YEARS. I KNOW THERE ARE SOME VENDORS THAT HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO ME ABOUT THAT. YES. EXCELLENT. THANK YOU. 

>> SO, I CAN MAYBE TALK LITTLE BIT ABOUT BATTERY TECHNOLOGY. I THINK WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SEE IS THE MAIN CHEMISTRIES WE HAVE OUT RIGHT NOW ARE GOING TO BE PRETTY CONSISTENT. YOU WILL STILL SEE INCREMENTAL CHANGES AND IMPROVEMENTS IN THEM. THE STAIN -- SAME STYLES SHOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS, AT A MINIMUM. THE NEXT EVOLUTIONARY STEP IS LIKELY TO BE BEYOND 10 YEARS. SO, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO SELL MANUFACTURERS, WHAT YOU WANT TO LOOK FOR IS WHAT IS THEIR FUTURE PLANS? IN MY CURRENT COMPANY, AND SOME OF THE FORMER ONES, IF THE PLAN WERE TO HAVE THE SAME CELL DIMENSION SO THAT I WAS FORWARD PROTECTING, SO EVEN IF I CHANGED CHEMISTRIES, I COULD GO BACK TO AIPAC I DESIGNED FIVE YEARS AGO AND PUT NEW CELLS BACK INTO IT. I THINK YOU ARE NOT LIKELY TO SEE THE EMERGENCE OF NEW, REALLY EVOLUTIONARY, REVOLUTIONARY CHANGES IN CHEMISTRY UNTIL 2025 AND BEYOND. 

JOE: THANK YOU FOR THAT. 

>> I WILL ADD TO JOHN'S COMMENT, FROM THE PACK PERSPECTIVE, WHICH REFLECT MYSELF -- CELL COMPANIES DO WANT TO PROTECT FORMATS BECAUSE THEY HAVE LARGE INVESTORS, HOWEVER THE RAPID CHANGE IN COST STRUCTURE THAT THOSE OF YOU HAVE BEEN EXPLORING BETTER TECHNOLOGY HAVE NOTICED IN THE PAST YEAR THE PREVAILING MARKETPLACE HAS DROPPED IN HALF. THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN VENDOR. THAT TEQUILA VENDOR HAS CHANGE THEIR SELF FORMAT THREE TIMES IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS -- PARTICULAR VENDOR HAS CHANGED THEIR FORMAT THREE TIMES IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS. I RECOMMEND LOOKING AT FOR PROTECTION IN TERMS OF CHANGING THINGS OUT, THINK OF IT MORE AT A ROCK OR ROOM LEVEL NOT A BATTERY MODULE LEVEL. WE HAVE A LOT OF NORWEGIAN MODELS THAT A VESSEL TO DO THREE-YEAR, SEVEN-YEAR, PRICE CURVE STUDIES. WE FIND A TWO-YEAR, THREE YEARS WHILE ALMOST NEVER MAKES ECONOMIC -- SWAP ALMOST NEVER MAKES ECONOMIC SENSE, DEPENDING ON THE PRESENT VALUE OF MONEY -- I FORGOT THE RIGHT VARIABLE THERE. THE PERCENTAGE YOU APPLY. THEY CAN MAKE SENSE. IF THEY USE A MORE CONSERVATIVE ASSUMPTION, YOU WANT TO STAY BELOW THE EXPONENTIAL SPIKE. TYPICALLY GOING FOR THE LONGER LIFE, THE TEN-YEAR LIFE VERSUS THE FIVE-YEAR LIFE, ALL TO MY IS WHAT THAT ULTIMATELY IS WHAT WILL SHOWED US. THE HARD PARSES PRODUCING WHAT THE PRICES ARE GOING TO DO. 

>> ONE OF THE THINGS AS A SYSTEM INTEGRATOR -- WE DO MANUFACTURE OUR OWN BATTERIES. IT IS SPECIFIC TO GROUND APPLICATION, AND WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS FUNDAMENTALLY, WE CANNOT PREDICT WHAT WE HAVE TO DO AT THE CELL OF P WE HAVE TO MEASURE THE MODULE LEVEL AND THE PACK LEVEL. AND THE BATTERY CAN CHANGE FROM HOW THE SYSTEM OPERATES CAN CHANGE. IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IN A SYSTEM, I WILL TALK TO WHAT WE ARE FAMILIAR WITH. WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE PRODUCT FOR 12, 15 YEARS MINIMUM. IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO SIGN A CONTRACT TO DO THAT. TECHNOLOGY IS CONTINUOUSLY CHANGING. UNDERLYING COMPONENTS ARE CONTINUOUSLY CHANGING. WITH THE SYSTEM DOES CANNOT CARE THAT HAS TO SAY THE SAME. WHAT WE ARE FOCUSED ON AND WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS ON IS THE FORWARD-LOOKING ELEMENTS IS MORE ALONG THE LINES OF MEDICATION PROTOCOLS, SAFETY ASPECTS -- STANDARDIZATION OF ALL OF THOSE ELEMENTS OF THAT. ALL THE ELEMENTS OF THE SYSTEM LEVEL IS STILL THE SAME. FROM A VEHICLE PLATFORM, THERE HAS TO BE SOME LEVEL OF CONSIDERATION IN TERMS OF -- YOU KNOW, I WOULD EXPECT FROM THE CELL AND THE OTHER MANUFACTURERS LIKE OURSELVES AND TO THE INTEGRATORS IS TO RETAIN A GOOD CONSCIOUSNESS OF, SAY, YOU KNOW, WHEN THINGS GET LARGER THAN THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO, THEY WILL NOT FIT IN THE SMALLER PLACE THE ORIGINAL COMPONENT WAS MADE. SO FORWARD COMPATIBILITY IS AS CRITICAL. THAT -- THOSE THINGS WE FOCUS ON. ALL OF US -- [INDISCERNIBLE] [INDISCERNIBLE] [INDISCERNIBLE] TECHNOLOGY MANUFACTURERS [INDISCERNIBLE] 

>> THANK YOU. 

>> HE ALREADY ADDRESSED THIS. 

MITCH: I DO NOT KNOW HOW I'M DOING ON TIME. 

>> THING FOR CELLS THAT MIGHT BE A REASSURING -- AS JOHN MENTIONED, STEP CHANGES IN TECHNOLOGY ARE 10 YEARS OUT. AND FOR MENTAL IMPROVEMENT WILL COME OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS. MOST OF THE CURRENT STEP CHANGE TECHNOLOGIES WE HAVE LOOKED AT USE A SIMILAR, CELL-BASED CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUE. THE REASON I SAY THAT IS IF YOU DESIGN A BATTERY ROOM WITH CERTAIN PROTECTIONS AND FIRE SUPPRESSION AND THE IDEA THAT YOU HAVE A RETIRED GAELIC -- RECTANGULAR BOX SUMMER, MOST OF THE THINGS PEOPLE ARE -- SOMEWHERE, MOST OF THE THINGS PEOPLE ARE BUILDING WILL GO INTO A RECTANGULAR BO. XTHERE ARE NOT A LOT OF TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHAPE FORM FACTOR THAT WOULD GO INTO A RECTANGULAR BOX . IF YOU ARE EXCITED ABOUT LITHIUM AIR, IT WILL BE A CELL, AND IT WILL LOOK A LOT LIKE THE CELL JOHN MAKES TODAY. THE FORM FACTOR ON A MACRO SCALE WILL NOT CHANGE. 

JOE: THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. LET'S SEE. ALL RIGHT, WELL, THESE ARE DRAWINGS THAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH, I AM SURE. AND THE WAY THAT I AM THINKING ABOUT IT IS WITH A TRACTION MOTOR -- AND I THINK LARRY SPOKE VERY DIRECTLY TO THIS, THE SOURCE OF THE LOGICAL POWER CAN VARY, AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE CONSIDERING, OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS THE BATTERY , THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY ON BOARD THE BOATS, BUT ALSO THE FUEL CELL MARKET ON ROAD IS DEVELOPING. GE HAS AN 80 KILOWATTS ENGINE THAT WAYS TO HUNDRED 48 KILOGRAMS NOT INCLUDING -- 248 KILOGRAMS NOT INCLUDE ANY OF THE STRUCTURE. WE DO ANTICIPATE THAT MOVING FOR PAY THE HYBRID MIGHT MOVE FROM THE DIESEL GENERATOR TO -- MOVING FORWARD. THE HYBRID MIGHT MOVE TO A DIESEL GENERATOR MOVING FORWARD. WE HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO GET GREEN ENERGY. IDEALLY WE WOULD HAVE A FULLY ELECTRIFIED VESSEL WHEN WE BUILD IT. IT IS NOT FEASIBLE TODAY. SO WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD A BOAT THAT CAN MOVE TOWARD THE ARCHITECTURE THAT IS ON THE AMP HERE. AND THIS IS -- THERE HAS BEEN SOME VERY ADVANCED AND SOPHISTICATED ECONOMIC ANALYSIS DONE. WILL, AND SEAN, I THINK, SPOKE TO THAT YESTERDAY. I KNOW EVERYBODY LOOKS AT THIS. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AS AN OPERATING -- OPERATOR THAT I WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN IS WHEN I DID SOME BASE ANALYSIS, I IDENTIFIED A NUMBER OF VARIABLES, BUT I AM NOT SURE I AM CAPTURING THEM ALL. SO, I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO THE GROUP ABOUT THAT. I WILL SHARE WITH YOU SOME OF THE ITEMS I WAS LOOKING AT. SO, I DO NOT HAVE A SLIDE FOR THIS. I AM JUST GOING TO VERBALIZE THIS. CLEARLY, THERE IS THE BATTERY COST. SO, IF YOU JUST LUMP SUM AND SAY I HAVE THE CHOICE TO GO WITH A DIESEL ENGINE OR A HYBRID, THERE WILL BE A MARGIN INCREASE FOR THAT, AND WHAT IS THE PAYBACK ON THAT? WITH THE HYBRID VESSEL THAT IS SET UP RIGHT, YOU CAN SEE FUEL EFFICIENCY. SO, WE SHOW AN EXAMPLE OF 15% FROM ATS. OTHER PROJECTIONS I THINK ARE GENERALLY ABOVE THAT -- SOMEWHAT FROM 15% TO 20%. THAT IS OFF THE TOP FUEL SAVINGS. THEN YOU HAVE THE DIESEL FUEL PRICE, WHICH RIGHT NOW IS NOT ADVANTAGEOUS FOR A RETURN ON INVESTMENT BECAUSE IT IS SLOW -- SO LOW. THEN YOU HAVE THE ENERGY PRICE. YOU KNOW, WHEN I SAY THE ENERGY PRICE, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE GRID IN ENERGY. SO -- AND FOR US, I DID SOME RESEARCH -- PEAK PRODUCTION GREEN ENERGY IS ABOUT $.24 PER KILOWATT. THAT IS NOT THE RESEARCHER TO PLUG IT IN AND GO -- INFRASTRUCTURE TO PLUG IT IN AND GO FULL. IT IS A HIGH COST. I WAS DOING ANALYSIS TO SEE WHERE THE DIESEL HAD TO BE AND WHERE IT WOULD CROSS OVER. IN MY ANALYSIS I FOUND THE HYBRID SYSTEM ACTUALLY HAS SOMEWHERE AROUND 250 IN DIESEL COSTS. I WILL START GETTING A RETURN -- NOT REALLY A RETURN, A POSITIVE FLOW ON MY OUTLAY. THE RETURN IS MAYBE, YOU KNOW, 60 YEARS, MUCH LONGER THAN THE VESSEL. THE DIESEL PRICES HAVE TO COME UP OVER TIME. WITH A PLUG-IN HYBRID, AND ASHLEY GOES AWAY IF I USE $.17 PER KILOWATT -- ACTUALLY GOES AWAY IF I USE $.17 PER KILOWATT HOUR. WITH ALL ELECTRIC, YOU CAN, BUT THAT TAKES THE DIESEL PRICE OF TWO 450, OR SOME -- UP TO 450 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. MAYBE DURING QUESTIONS AND AS, PEOPLE CAN RESPOND TO IT. ALTHOUGH -- YES? 

>> I JUST SAY MORE THAN ANYTHING IT COMES DOWN TO YOUR FIRST BULLET POINT -- IT IS ALL ABOUT THE OPERATING PROFILE . THE DETAILS THEREOF, ESPECIALLY WITH THE HYBRID CASE, WHAT YOUR BENEFITS WILL BE DEPENDS ENTIRELY ON THE OPERATING PROFILE. WHEN YOU WILL USE IT . WHEN THE KEY PIECES IS OPERATING YOUR OPERATING PROFILE. HOW THE SHIP IS USED, WITH THE POWER REQUIREMENTS ARE, WHAT THE FLUCTUATIONS ARE, THE PEAKS ARE, THE AVERAGES -- WHEN YOU ARE MANEUVERING, GOING AT FULL SPEED. ALL OF THOSE DETAILS ARE GOING TO ENTIRELY DETERMINED YOUR ABILITY TO ULTIMATELY SIZE YOUR BATTERY SYSTEM, AND WHAT KIND OF OPPORTUNITIES YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE FOR USING IT AND PROVIDING SOME BENEFIT. IT IS REALLY ALL ABOUT THE OPERATING. 

JOE: HI-POWER I UNDERSTOOD 

--JOE: I UNDERSTAND IT IS VERY COMPLEX. THE TOPIC CAME UP YESTERDAY. 60, AN OPERATOR LOOKS AT POWER DEMAND. -- TYPICALLY, AN OPERATOR LOOKS AT POWER DEMAND. HOW MUCH POWER WILL TAKE -- WILL IT TAKE TO IMPROVE HALL SPEED? THAT IS WHAT WE ARE FAMILIAR WITH. WHEN I LOOK AT THE SAME THINGS FROM THE RANGE, YOU'RE TALKING BATTERY SIZE, WHICH IS THE SAME THING AS YOUR CAPITAL EXPENSE, IF IT IS ALL ELECTRIC. CHARGE RATE, CHARGE TIME -- HOW MUCH TIME YOU ARE GOING TO BE AT THE DOCK, WHAT BATTERY CHEMISTRY -- THE CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE. THE EQUATION THAT HAD TO VARIABLES OR TWO THINGS TO LOOK AT, THAT IS JUST DURATION. IF YOU LOOK AT THE POWER, HE SAY I PEAK POWER, WHICH DEPENDS, AS YOU SAID, ON THE ROUTE. AS AN OPERATOR, WHEN YOU ARE BUILDING A 30-YEAR INVESTMENT, YOU WANT SOME FLEXIBILITY. IF YOU ARE PART OF A NATIONAL HIGHWAY SYSTEM, LIKE THE AMP HERE. THAT BOAT IS BUILT TO RUN THAT PIECE OF ROAD. IT IS NOT GOING TO MARY. FOR US, -- MARY. FOR US, TO BE CONSISTENT AND RESPOND TO DEMANDS IN THE FUTURE, IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE A $7 MILLION INVESTMENT, WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO USE THAT IN MORE THAN 1 -- THE FLEXIBILITY WASHES OUT. ANYWAY, THIS IS SOMETHING I'M THINKING ABOUT, AND HOW IT WOULD BE GREAT FOR THE INDUSTRY IF THERE WAS SOME MODELING THAT COULD BE DONE WITH YOUR BASELINE, YOUR DIFFERENT ASSUMPTIONS -- YOU START DIALING IN YOUR ASSUMPTION CAN I KNOW IT IS CRYSTAL BALL, BUT I SEE SOME EAGERNESS TO RESPOND. 

>> BEN IS RIGHT -- THE DESIGN AND AN ALL-ELECTRIC SYSTEM, THE DIFFERENCE IS NIGHT AND DAY. WHEN YOU'RE DESIGNING A HYBRID SYSTEM, YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE ELIMINATE OF -- ELIMINATION OF INEFFICIENCY. WE DID A CATAMARAN -- THE LOW-SPEED CATAMARAN, SLOTH WHEN I HAVE HEARD OF, DOES 12 KNOTS. IT IS A HYBRID SYSTEM. IT IS OPERATING IN CONNECTICUT. WHEN WE ORIGINALLY DESIGNED IT, WE CAME UP WITH A PROFILE AND SAID THESE ARE THE AREAS THAT MAKE SENSE FOR THIS BOTH TO OPERATE. IF YOU ARE UNDER CERTAIN RPMS, THE ENGINE COMES ON OR DOES NOT COME ON. WE DID IT FOR A YEAR, AND WE FOUND OUT THE ENGINES OPERATE -- ON A SIX-HOUR CRUISE, THEY WERE TWO HOURS ON THE ENGINE AND FOUR HOURS OFF THE ENGINE. THEY CAME BACK AND THEY SAID WE ARE SEEING A SLIGHT DIFFERENCE HERE IN THE WAY WE THOUGHT IT WOULD OPERATE VERSUS HOW IT IS OPERATING. IS THERE SOMETHING WE CAN DO TO IMPROVE THIS OR CHANGE THIS BECAUSE WE THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO DO ONE ROUTE, WE ARE DOING THREE DIFFERENT CRUISES NOW? WE CAME UP WITH AN AGGREGATE THAT MADE SENSE, AND DID THE ANALYSIS TO SAY HERE IS WHAT WE THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT A COUPLE OF THINGS -- IF YOU WANT TO TURN THE ENGINE OFF MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT HAVE AN IMPACT ON BATTERY RATES, AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SYSTEM, YOU ARE RIGHT, IT IS THE LARGEST INVESTMENT. WE DID THE ANALYSIS, AND NOW THE VESSEL OPERATES FIVE AND A HALF HOURS ENGINE OFF VERSUS ENGINE ON , AND YOUR SAVINGS REALLY IS THE ADDITIONAL TIME THE ENGINE IS NOT RUNNING. THE FUEL BURN -- 1.6 GALLONS PER HOUR TO ABOUT 2.4 GALLONS PER HOUR ON THE HIGH-SPEED ROUTE. IT IS A SMALLER VESSEL. IT BURNS LESS. THAT FLEXIBILITY HAS TO BE BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM. WE CANNOT SAY THERE IS MORE VARIABILITY IN THE WATER. YOUR SYSTEM DESIGN AND ARCHITECTURE HAS TO BE ABLE TO -- IT HAS TO BE VERSATILE TO ADAPT AND MODIFIED. YOU DO NOT WANT TO KEEP CHANGING IT FOR EVERY ROUTE. YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO OPTIMIZE IT FOR ALL ROUTES. YOUR CONCERNS ARE VALID. IN TERMS OF YOUR SAVINGS AND YOUR PAYBACK, THE OTHER ELEMENT OF IT IS THE MAINTENANCE COST. DOWNSIZING THE MAIN AND ARE -- ENGINE, IF YOU CAN, OFFSETTING THE BATTERY, THAT COULD HELP. THE QUICK QUESTION -- THE FLEXIBILITY YOU GOT BY ADDING BATTERIES? 

>> NOTHING IN HARDWARE WAS CHANGE. THE SOFTWARE PARAMETERS WERE MODIFIED. WE'RE COLLECTING DATA OFF THE VOTE ON A DAILY BASIS. WE ARE CONNECTING AND COLLECTING DATA. BASED ON THE ROUTE DESCRIPTION, WE ACTUALLY HAVE POWER THAT CAN BE CONVERTED INTO VESSEL SPEED, ETC.. WE ARE ABLE TO SEE WHAT THE VESSEL IS DOING, CONFIRMING WITH THE OPERATOR, THEN GET THEIR FEEDBACK ON WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE, AND MAKE THOSE CHANGES THROUGH THE 

>> THAT IS ENCOURAGING. HOW ARE WE DOING ON TIME? 

>> TRIED TO WRAP UP. 

>> I CAN DO THAT. I MAY HAVE ANOTHER SLIDE. ONE OF THE KEY BENEFITS , I HAVE MENTIONED IT EARLIER, ONE OF OUR COMMITMENTS, YOU SEE PEOPLE ON THEIR VOTES WITH THE HEADSET SO NOISE IS A FACTOR AND YOU SEE HOW BEAUTIFUL IT IS AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE WHEN YOU COME TO SAN FRANCISCO AND YOU TAKE A CRUISE WITH US, THERE IS ECO-BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES THAT WAS IDENTIFIED AS ONE OF THE BENEFITS. ALSO JUST CLIENTS. THANK YOU. 

>> THANK YOU. [APPLAUSE] 

>> THERE IS ANOTHER ACTIVITY, THE VESSEL CASE STUDY PANEL QUESTION-AND-ANSWER. WE WILL OPEN IT UP TO GENERAL QUESTIONS. SAY WHAT? NOTHING COMES TO MIND RIGHT NOW BUT THANK YOU PROPERLY MET. -- OFFERING THAT. A COUPLE OF THOUGHTS. I REALLY LIKE THE PRESENTATION, I THOUGHT IT WAS EXCELLENT. DEFINITELY FOOD FOR THOUGHT. ONE THOUGHT THAT CAME TO MIND IS TALKING ABOUT THE CHALLENGES OF SURE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR WASHINGTON STATE FERRIES, ALSO THE CHARGING IS PROBABLY A MUST, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AUTOMATED CHARGING BUT ALSO AUTOMATED MORNING. I THINK THAT IS A CHALLENGE FOR WASHINGTON STATE FERRY IN TERMS OF THE GEOMETRY OF THE DOCKET -- DOCKING INFRASTRUCTURE TO SEAT LARGE VACUUM MORING DEVICES. THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY CHALLENGES. 

>> I APOLOGIZE FOR CAUSING, -- PAUSING, WE HAVE TO WAIT TO SEE HOW NIMBLE THE ROBOT IS. FOR KEVIN, THOSE BATTERY SIZES ARE HUGE. I LOVE THE BOLDNESS OF THE ANALYSIS WHERE YOU DID NOT SHY AWAY FROM -- WHERE THE NUMBERS ARE YOU WENT WITH THE ANALYSIS. YOU GET TO 100 MEGAWATT HOUR BATTERY AND MY FIRST THOUGHT IS THAT MAYBE WE ARE AT A DIFFERENT KIND OF BATTERY, SOMETHING LIKE A FLOW BATTERY SO MY THOUGHT WAS RATHER THEM CHARGING -- THAN CHARGING IN 12 HOURS OR SIX HOURS IN PORT TIME, MAYBE GO TO A BUNKERING TYPE OPERATION WHERE WE ARE TAKING ON LIQUID, TAKING ON CHARGE LIQUID SOAP -- WHILE -- THE PORT SIDE OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE, THIS IS DOWN THE ROAD, THE PORT SIDE OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE COULD BE CHARGING THE LIQUID UP OVER TIME, A STUDY -- STEADY DAY AND NIGHT AND THEN THE SHIPS COME IN AND YOU BUNKER THAT CHARGE LIQUID ON AND PUMPED IT THROUGH THE FLOW BATTERY INTO ANOTHER TANK. IT IS MUCH MORE LIKE A TYPICAL MARINE TYPE OPERATION WHERE YOU PUMP FLUIDS. AS YOU COME IN, YOU COME OFF THE UNCHARGED LIQUID BACK TO SHORE. THAT WAS ONE THOUGHT. ONCE WE GET INTO THOSE EXTREMELY LARGE BATTERY SIZES WE MAY HAVE TO GO TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT UNLESS THERE IS A BIG TECHNOLOGY BREAKTHROUGH IN CHARGING. 

>> IS THIS WORKING? IT SAYS TIME OF CHARGING, IT SEEMS TO BE A CONCERN, HAVE YOU GIVEN A THOUGHT TO HAVING BATTERIES THAT WERE ON SHORE WHILE THE BOAT IS TRAVELING, AND THEN WHEN YOU COME, YOU REPLACE THE BATTERIES AND KEEP ON GOING WITHOUT HAVING TO WAIT FOR CHARGING? 

>> NO. THE SHORT POWER CHARGING IS ASSUMED IN MY ANALYSIS TO THE ON A FAIRLY LARGE GRID. BRIAN MAY BE ABLE TO SPEED TO THAT BETTER, THE GRID WAS VERY WEAK, ROLE-BASED SO WE NEEDED A SLOPE -- RURAL-BASED SO ONCE IT CAME IN, IT COULD HAVE ENERGY TO DO THE HIGHER RATE THAT THAT WOULD NOT BE NEEDED FOR THE APPLICATIONS I AM LOOKING AT. 

>> WE HAVE AN OPERATION IN THE PORT WHERE WE HAVE 72 TRUCKS RUNNING AROUND ON BATTERIES, 100%. WHEN THEY RUN OUT OF CHARGE, THEY AUTOMATICALLY GO INTO THE SHOP, REPLACE THE BATTERY ON THEIR OWN, AUTOMATICALLY, PUT THE BATTERY DISCHARGED BATTERY IN THE BUILDING AND THEY TAKE A CHARGE TO ONE AND GO BACK INTO OPERATION WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ANDY DISCHARGED BATTERY SIT IN THEIR BEING CHARGED FOR THE NEXT TRUCK. IT IS FEASIBLE, THE BUILDING FOR 72 UNITS CHARGING, IN CASE YOU'RE INTERESTED. IT IS ABOUT $10 MILLION. IF YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE ONE OR TWO BATTERIES, IT WOULD BE MUCH MORE FEASIBLE. I THINK IT WOULD WORK FOR YOU ALSO. 

>> IT WOULD BE A VERY TIME INTENSIVE CYCLE TO DO THAT. THAT WOULD BE THE MAJOR DRAWBACK. THE BATTERIES WOULD BE DOWN LOW. 

>> MORE OF A COMMENT, YOU MENTIONED AUTOMATED -- WHEN YOU COME INTO THE DOCK, THERE IS A COMPANY IN VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, SEE BUS THAT IS BEEN IN OPERATION FOR A FEW YEARS AND THEY HAVE A U-SHAPED SYSTEM, THEIR BOATS ARE DOUBLE ENDED. THEY HAVE THREE INCHES OF CLEARANCE BETWEEN THE BOAT AND THE U SHOAPE. THERE IS A CAM. NO PERSON HAS TO HANDLE LINES. OUR VESSELS HANDLE LINES, THEY ARE IN CONSTANT DANGER, ANY BOAT IN SAN FRANCISCO HANDLING THE LINES MANUALLY. THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 40 YEARS, VERY EFFICIENT. THE VANCOUVER OLYMPICS, THEY TRANSPORTED 60,000 PEOPLE OVER A 24-HOUR PERIOD. AMAZINGLY EFFICIENT, THEY CAN UNLOAD 385 PEOPLE IN THREE MINUTES AND THEY ARE LOADING AT THE SAME TIME IN THREE MINUTES. VERY NICE PEOPLE. THEY GIVE US A TOUR AND SHOWED US THEIR WHOLE OPERATION. SEA BUS. 

>> OTHER QUESTIONS? 

>> A QUICK COMMENT, THE GENERAL AND FROM THAT GENTLEMAN FROM BA MENTIONED ABOUT CHANGING THE USES OF THE BATTERIES ON THE VESSEL AND SORT OF WHAT IT SPEAKS TO IS THE ORIGINAL ESTIMATES THAT WHEN THE PACK SIZING EXERCISES. AS IN ANY DESIGN EXERCISE, WHERE UNCERTAINTY EXISTS, YOU ADD MARGIN AND THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A GOOD JOB DONE IN PUTTING IN A FOR MARGIN. THEY FOUND ONCE THEY GOT INTO USING IT THEY COULD CHANGE THEIR OPERATION TO LEVERAGE A LITTLE MORE OF THAT. ONE THING THAT IS OBVIOUS MAYBE BUT MAYBE NOT, WITH THE COST ON A PER KILOWATT HOUR BASIS DROPPING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, LESS OF A PENALTY TO BEING THAT CONSERVATIVE, MAYBE DOWN THE ROAD, YOU SAY IT IS OK TO BE MORE UNCERTAIN, LET'S JUST INFLATE OUR SIZE A LITTLE BIT -- SORRY IF INFLATING HAS TO COME FROM A BAD MANUFACTURING. 

>> A COMMENT AND THEN A QUESTION. I APPRECIATE YOU UNDERSCORING THE REALITY THAT THE ROUTE CAN CHANGE IN ADDITION TO COMMERCIAL REASONS, THERE ARE ANY NUMBER OF REASONS WHERE SEABORNE VESSELS SMALL AND LARGE CAN GET CAUGHT TO PERFORM THE OPPOSITE OF THE ROUTE WHETHER 9/11, A DOWNED PLANE COME IN SAN FRANCISCO WE HAVE THE VESSEL MUTUAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAM WHERE WE ALL AGREE THAT WE ARE READY TO CHANGE OUR OPERATING PROFILE COMPLETELY AND IN AND INSTEAD. A MARITIME REALITY AND APPROPRIATE WE DISCUSSED THAT AT MERIT HEADQUARTERS. READY TO WORK OR FIGHT AS MERCHANT MARINERS BUT THE QUESTION IS, CAN YOU SPEAK TO THE CAMPBELL BOSS REPORT? A LOT OF INFORMATION IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE BUT CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT, THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BEFORE AND AFTER THE INCIDENT? 

>> THAT WAS EARLY IN THE PROCESS WITH LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES AND I SEE WITH ALL THE MANUFACTURERS, SO MANY IMPROVEMENTS MADE. THERE IS ALWAYS A RISK, THE MAN, DR. HILL GOT INTO THE ASSUMPTION THAT A FIRE WILL BREAK OUT AT THE MODULE LEVEL AND THAT IS WHERE I AM EXCITED WITH THE PROPAGATION TEST COME A LOVE OF THE BETTER -- BATTERY MANUFACTURERS ARE LINING UP TO GET THAT APPROVAL AND THE SAFETY NOW WITH SO MUCH HIGHER THAN BACK IN 2010-2011. 

>> ARE THERE ANY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES ABOUT WHAT WAS DONE DURING THE RETROFIT THAT MADE THAT BETTER? JUST AN EVOLUTION IN BATTERY TECHNOLOGY? 

>> THE BATTERIES WERE IN THE MACHINERY SPACE, I THINK THERE WAS SOME VENTILATION, PVC PIPING, THEY WENT THROUGH RETROFIT AND NOW UPGRADED AND HAVE THEIR OWN DEDICATED BATTERY ROOM, DEDICATED VENTILATION, A COOLER AMBIENT, THE SYSTEMS ON BOARD, THE BMS HAS BEEN IMPROVED BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN APPROVED MORE RECENTLY. YES, I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE, SO MANY IN THIS ROOM, WHAT CAN IMPROVE SAFETY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. 

>> THANK YOU. 

>> TO ADD TO THAT, A KEY THING THAT NOT AS WELL APPRECIATED, THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CONTROL SYSTEM ON A BATTERY SYSTEM. THE BMS, HOW QUALITY IT IS TAILORED TO THE CELLS AND HEALTHY CELLS ARE UNDERSTOOD IN DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT AND IT'S IMPORTANT IN SAFETY FEATURE AND SAFETY COMPONENT OF THE SYSTEM. IT IS A MESS. -- IT IS A IMMENSE. IT IS HARD TO EVALUATE BUT THIS IS IN THE REALM OF THINGS THAT WE ARE STRATEGICALLY TRYING TO DEVELOP WITHOUT PUTTING UNDUE BURDEN ON THE SYSTEMS BUT IT IS ALSO AN IMPORTANT THING THAT YOU GET WITH DISCERNING A QUALITY SYSTEM. THERE IS DEVELOPMENT, LEARNING THOSE LESSONS, THAT IS WHAT PRODUCES QUALITY. IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND I THINK THAT IS A BIG PIECE OF SAFETY AND A BIG PIECE OF A WAY TO LOOK AT WHAT DEFINES A QUALITY SYSTEM. FOR MARITIME SYSTEMS AND GENERAL, YOU GET A HIGHER LEVEL OF QUALITY FROM CONTROL SYSTEMS. 

>> IN ANY PROPOSED IN SYSTEM, MAYBE THERE ARE SOME HERE -- PROPULSION SYSTEM, THE BATTERY SYSTEM IS A DIFFERENT CONTROL SYSTEM THAN YOUR PROPULSION SYSTEM, TWO SEPARATE SYSTEMS. THE INTEGRITY OF THE SYSTEMS TO WORK TOGETHER AS A SINGLE SYSTEM IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. SO THE BATTERY SYSTEM, YOU ARE RIGHT, IT HAS TO BE TOP NOTCH AND SO THAT THE TOP LEVEL VEHICLE PROPULSION SYSTEM. THE WAY THEY WORK TOGETHER AND COMMUNICATE TO THE OPERATOR TO MAKE IT INTUITIVE AND NOT COMPLICATED OR TO IGNORE THE COMPLEXITY OR OVERSIMPLIFY IT HAS TO BE VERY WELL THOUGHT OUT. THE MATTEL THAT HE IS A LOVE OF TIME TO KEEP IT SIMPLE AND THE OPERATING LEVEL, YES, BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE SIMPLICITY IS NOT TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PROBLEM THAT CAN ARISE FROM IGNORING THE COMPLEXITIES. THOSE -- IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE OR ANY APPLICATION, WHETHER IT IS SMALL SHIP OR BIG SHIP, THE INTEGRITY OF THOSE TWO SYSTEMS AND THE TEST AND EVALUATE TESTING THE TWO SYSTEMS IS CRITICAL. ANYONE FROM THE COAST GUARD WAS SAY THAT WHEN YOU DO A DVTP, A LOT OF THE TESTING IS TO MAKE SURE THE SYSTEMS ARE ALL COMPATIBLE -- NOT JUST COMPATIBLE AND WORKING AS INDEPENDENT ELEMENTS THAT ARE WORKING TOGETHER AS A COMMON SYSTEM TO PROVIDE THE SAFEST OPERATING CRITERIA IS FOR THE OPERATOR. THAT IS ONE THING. NOT JUST THE BATTERY SYSTEM, THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF OWNERSHIP AND LIABILITY TO GIVE YOU A WELL INTEGRATED SYSTEM. 

>> I THINK WE ARE OUT OF TIME. I WANT TO THANK THE PANELISTS. [APPLAUSE] ANNOUNCEMENTS? 

>> THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT MATTERS, -- BATTERIES, WE DID NOT WANT TO IMPROVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN LITHIUM-ION, FLOW BATTERIES, LITHIUM AIR BATTERIES, OTHER TYPES OF ENERGY STORAGE LIGHT FLYWHEEL -- LIKE FLYWHEEL, ANOTHER DISCUSSION FOR THE FUTURE. THE REPORT FOR THIS CAMPBELL BELL, ISAAC UPLOADED IN OUR WEBSITE. -- I THINK UPLOADED IN OUR WEBSITE, LOTS OF REPORTS UPLOADED IN THE WEBSITE. YOU CAN ACCESS THIS REPORT. WE WILL PUT IT UP IN OUR WEBSITE AS TO HOW TO ACCESS THIS REPORT. 

>> WE HAVE NOT MADE A DECISION ABOUT THAT BUT THE TRANSCRIPT MAY BE AVAILABLE, I HAVE TO WORK ON THAT. I THINK THAT IS ALL WE HAVE, WE WILL BREAK FOR LUNCH NOW. ONE HOUR, LUNCH IS ON YOUR OWN SO PLEASE BE BACK IN ONE HOUR. THANK YOU.